Octopus hunters in Cove 2 ...
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Re: Octopus hunters in Cove 2 ...
by davidguilbault » Sat Nov 03, 2012 4:29 am
Hello.
I joined this forum just so I could share this post. I read through this thread and it disturbed me greatly.
This furor is a lesson on how quickly a character assassination can happen on the Internet. Most divers who posted on this 17-page diatribe about the killing of an octopus in Seattle did so before they actually knew the facts.
Don't really want to weigh in about the morality of hunting or the childish bravado of hunters. But I do want to say that it worries and distresses me when so many people can wage an attack on someone so quickly, based only on hearsay.
The young diver was accused of illegally killing a nesting, defenseless female octopus, taking her away from thousands of eggs, causing her death and the death of a generation of octopi. It should be noted that the prevailing understanding now, after some actual news reporting, is that the diver had a license, the octopus was a legal kill and that it was not a nesting mother.
It's the former journalist in me that likes to set the record straight. This young man is getting death threats and says he has been told by his employer to not return to work after his leave of absence. He is also being banned from a variety of dive shops and has been called every name in the book. He says his ambition to be a rescue diver is now thwarted, as some dive schools are denying him admission. Don't know if that last is true or not.
In a radio interview (http://mynorthwest.com/?nid=577&a=9948224&p&n) he gave defending himself he claims everything he did was legal, and that he took the octopus both as a subject for an art drawing class requiring something from nature and as food. He says he has eaten some already, shared some with family and friends and has 50 lbs more in his freezer. (Everyone who has posted in this thread ought to listen to this radio interview.)
Meanwhile his Facebook and MySpace pages have been harvested to be used as fodder for all kinds of accusatory assumptions and insinuations. He has become a pariah, all before the facts were fully known.
And Pacific Northwesterners, as they are wont to do, have been wagging their fingers in self-righteous umbrage, name-calling and slandering before actually hearing from the hunter/fisherman to understand his side of the story.
Apparently, as I understand it, the divers who started the Web fire of personal destruction considered the fish in the cove where the young man was fishing to be their "protected pets." The man was apparently unaware of that or the sensitivity of the area for local divers. Wildlife authorities, on the other hand, say the man had every right to be fishing in those waters for whatever catch he desired, regardless of what anyone else thought of his actions. In fact, a game warden says she inspected his catch and found nothing illegal.
For his part, the young man said that the two divers who initially approached him, challenging what he was doing with a live octopus, were rude and aggressive. He did what many would do, and gave the rudeness and aggression back.
The two challengers didn't like the young hunter's attitude and decided, with no evidence other than his defensive, sarcastic responses, that he had killed a nesting mother. They took to the Web to launch a concerted campaign to identify the young man, invade his online presence, destroy his reputation and damage his relationship in the dive community.
Unfortunately, what they posted was simply not factual and caused slanderous damage. They bear responsibility for whatever destruction they brought to this young man's life. Hopefully they will accept that responsibility. The young man says he won't go back to that cove to fish again, respecting the wishes of the local divers, but will continue hunting for octopus, as is his legal right.
Even though the facts are now pretty much known, the demonizing of this young man continues. He says he hunts and butchers animals to eat. He has posted videos of those activities. But, comments on various news organization threads now describe his livestock slaughterings as animal torture.
I've seen a couple of his videos. They show an immature man butchering his food and playing around with his meat. You know, like hunters posing gleefully with their prized kills.
Remember, an awful lot of people, especially young people, now post just about everything they do online. This young man's video postings are being distorted.
Whether or not we ought to be killing animals for sport, food or any other reason is another kettle of fish altogether. (But, I do like my calamari, cow and pig.)
In any event, this should be a lesson to all of us online to do a little research, get the facts, give a story a little time to develop before we start sharing unfounded accusations and insinuations. And one should never start charging people with supposed heinous acts without ever giving that person an opportunity to explain their actions.
This first came to my attention through a Facebook posting where the poster said his intent was to embarrass this young diver. The original posting on this thread was a blatant threat against the young man and the dive businesses he frequented. Without a doubt it was an invitation for others to invade the young man's privacy.
When one begins to wrongly accuse someone, without having properly vetted the facts, it can quickly escalate out of control and cause real personal damage that might not ever be undone. These accusations need to stop here and now. In my opinion, this thread has been an embarrassment for all involved.
No one has a monopoly on "right" and "wrong." What we all have are laws. None, as far as I can ascertain at this time without further investigation, have been broken here. If you want to change the existing laws about octopi hunting, have at it. But, don't demonize this young man for doing what is accepted under the law.
For now, quite a few apologies are in order. And those who have caused damage in anyone's life have a responsibility to undo that damage.
Thank you all for allowing me to post on a forum to which I don't belong. I felt this thread was not about diving, but about fairness and the destruction caused by facile, false accusation. For the record, I'm scared to death to go under the water.
Hope all is well with you and yours.
Cheers for now.
David Guilbault
I joined this forum just so I could share this post. I read through this thread and it disturbed me greatly.
This furor is a lesson on how quickly a character assassination can happen on the Internet. Most divers who posted on this 17-page diatribe about the killing of an octopus in Seattle did so before they actually knew the facts.
Don't really want to weigh in about the morality of hunting or the childish bravado of hunters. But I do want to say that it worries and distresses me when so many people can wage an attack on someone so quickly, based only on hearsay.
The young diver was accused of illegally killing a nesting, defenseless female octopus, taking her away from thousands of eggs, causing her death and the death of a generation of octopi. It should be noted that the prevailing understanding now, after some actual news reporting, is that the diver had a license, the octopus was a legal kill and that it was not a nesting mother.
It's the former journalist in me that likes to set the record straight. This young man is getting death threats and says he has been told by his employer to not return to work after his leave of absence. He is also being banned from a variety of dive shops and has been called every name in the book. He says his ambition to be a rescue diver is now thwarted, as some dive schools are denying him admission. Don't know if that last is true or not.
In a radio interview (http://mynorthwest.com/?nid=577&a=9948224&p&n) he gave defending himself he claims everything he did was legal, and that he took the octopus both as a subject for an art drawing class requiring something from nature and as food. He says he has eaten some already, shared some with family and friends and has 50 lbs more in his freezer. (Everyone who has posted in this thread ought to listen to this radio interview.)
Meanwhile his Facebook and MySpace pages have been harvested to be used as fodder for all kinds of accusatory assumptions and insinuations. He has become a pariah, all before the facts were fully known.
And Pacific Northwesterners, as they are wont to do, have been wagging their fingers in self-righteous umbrage, name-calling and slandering before actually hearing from the hunter/fisherman to understand his side of the story.
Apparently, as I understand it, the divers who started the Web fire of personal destruction considered the fish in the cove where the young man was fishing to be their "protected pets." The man was apparently unaware of that or the sensitivity of the area for local divers. Wildlife authorities, on the other hand, say the man had every right to be fishing in those waters for whatever catch he desired, regardless of what anyone else thought of his actions. In fact, a game warden says she inspected his catch and found nothing illegal.
For his part, the young man said that the two divers who initially approached him, challenging what he was doing with a live octopus, were rude and aggressive. He did what many would do, and gave the rudeness and aggression back.
The two challengers didn't like the young hunter's attitude and decided, with no evidence other than his defensive, sarcastic responses, that he had killed a nesting mother. They took to the Web to launch a concerted campaign to identify the young man, invade his online presence, destroy his reputation and damage his relationship in the dive community.
Unfortunately, what they posted was simply not factual and caused slanderous damage. They bear responsibility for whatever destruction they brought to this young man's life. Hopefully they will accept that responsibility. The young man says he won't go back to that cove to fish again, respecting the wishes of the local divers, but will continue hunting for octopus, as is his legal right.
Even though the facts are now pretty much known, the demonizing of this young man continues. He says he hunts and butchers animals to eat. He has posted videos of those activities. But, comments on various news organization threads now describe his livestock slaughterings as animal torture.
I've seen a couple of his videos. They show an immature man butchering his food and playing around with his meat. You know, like hunters posing gleefully with their prized kills.
Remember, an awful lot of people, especially young people, now post just about everything they do online. This young man's video postings are being distorted.
Whether or not we ought to be killing animals for sport, food or any other reason is another kettle of fish altogether. (But, I do like my calamari, cow and pig.)
In any event, this should be a lesson to all of us online to do a little research, get the facts, give a story a little time to develop before we start sharing unfounded accusations and insinuations. And one should never start charging people with supposed heinous acts without ever giving that person an opportunity to explain their actions.
This first came to my attention through a Facebook posting where the poster said his intent was to embarrass this young diver. The original posting on this thread was a blatant threat against the young man and the dive businesses he frequented. Without a doubt it was an invitation for others to invade the young man's privacy.
When one begins to wrongly accuse someone, without having properly vetted the facts, it can quickly escalate out of control and cause real personal damage that might not ever be undone. These accusations need to stop here and now. In my opinion, this thread has been an embarrassment for all involved.
No one has a monopoly on "right" and "wrong." What we all have are laws. None, as far as I can ascertain at this time without further investigation, have been broken here. If you want to change the existing laws about octopi hunting, have at it. But, don't demonize this young man for doing what is accepted under the law.
For now, quite a few apologies are in order. And those who have caused damage in anyone's life have a responsibility to undo that damage.
Thank you all for allowing me to post on a forum to which I don't belong. I felt this thread was not about diving, but about fairness and the destruction caused by facile, false accusation. For the record, I'm scared to death to go under the water.
Hope all is well with you and yours.
Cheers for now.
David Guilbault
Last edited by davidguilbault on Sat Nov 03, 2012 4:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Octopus hunters in Cove 2 ...
by Grateful Diver » Sat Nov 03, 2012 4:45 am
David, a few of the "facts" you presented above are not factual ... and as the person who was there I will challenge them.
1. No one has ever suggested that what he did was illegal. In fact, on every interview I make it a point to state that what he did was perfectly legal ... but inappropriate.
2. My initial approach to this young man was not rude and aggressive. I asked him what he was doing ... in a normal tone of voice. When he said he "went to school for this" I pointed out that what he was doing was inappropriate, that he was hunting in the most popular dive site in Puget Sound, and that it was going to make him very unpopular with the divers in the area. He replied that he didn't care. So he had knowlledge at a time when he could easily have released the creature. He showed absolutely no inclination to do so ... and this was before there was any emotional responses from either him or me.
3. A couple of non-divers took pictures of him posing with his octopus. It was at that point that he mentioned that he might come back tomorrow and take another one. That comment wasn't even directed to me, at first ... it was directed toward two people who obviously thought this was really an impressive feat. It was at that point ... after he had been made aware of the inappropriateness of his actions, that I got upset with him.
So to suggest that he didn't know is false. There were others on the beach who heard and witnessed this.
He did make the claim that it was on eggs, and now it's not. There were others in the parking lot who heard him say it.
I have to cut this response short ... I need to meet someone at a dive site in 20 minutes. But much of what you posted is on the assumption that this young man is being truthful. He's not ... and there are others who can corroborate that fact.
We want to focus ahead on doing something positive for the community. I can't be responsible for what faceless strangers say or do ... although the family seems to think I should be. So be it. But this young man is now lying to justify his actions. And with the threats to me from his father last night, I have to now consider this an adversarial action, and respond accordingly. Everything I posted in this thread can be corroborated by others who were there at the time ... and they will be.
... Bob (Grateful Diver)
1. No one has ever suggested that what he did was illegal. In fact, on every interview I make it a point to state that what he did was perfectly legal ... but inappropriate.
2. My initial approach to this young man was not rude and aggressive. I asked him what he was doing ... in a normal tone of voice. When he said he "went to school for this" I pointed out that what he was doing was inappropriate, that he was hunting in the most popular dive site in Puget Sound, and that it was going to make him very unpopular with the divers in the area. He replied that he didn't care. So he had knowlledge at a time when he could easily have released the creature. He showed absolutely no inclination to do so ... and this was before there was any emotional responses from either him or me.
3. A couple of non-divers took pictures of him posing with his octopus. It was at that point that he mentioned that he might come back tomorrow and take another one. That comment wasn't even directed to me, at first ... it was directed toward two people who obviously thought this was really an impressive feat. It was at that point ... after he had been made aware of the inappropriateness of his actions, that I got upset with him.
So to suggest that he didn't know is false. There were others on the beach who heard and witnessed this.
He did make the claim that it was on eggs, and now it's not. There were others in the parking lot who heard him say it.
I have to cut this response short ... I need to meet someone at a dive site in 20 minutes. But much of what you posted is on the assumption that this young man is being truthful. He's not ... and there are others who can corroborate that fact.
We want to focus ahead on doing something positive for the community. I can't be responsible for what faceless strangers say or do ... although the family seems to think I should be. So be it. But this young man is now lying to justify his actions. And with the threats to me from his father last night, I have to now consider this an adversarial action, and respond accordingly. Everything I posted in this thread can be corroborated by others who were there at the time ... and they will be.
... Bob (Grateful Diver)
Threats and ultimatums are never the best answer. Public humiliation via Photoshop is always better - airsix
Come visit me at http://www.nwgratefuldiver.com/
Come visit me at http://www.nwgratefuldiver.com/
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Re: Octopus hunters in Cove 2 ...
by lynchpit2 » Sat Nov 03, 2012 5:33 am
In my opinion from Dylan's interviews he has lawyerd up. He was looking up and to the right when commenting about the octo not being on eggs and that he should have considered another dive site or time. His comments on the reports also are 180* from the comments he has made on other sites about this so that would suggest he has had legal counseling about what to say to the media to minimize the impact to the general public.
If you are a major contributor to this thread I would highly suggest you do the same and consult with an attorney on this as I believe there is a 98% chance his family will be considering, or already has started taking legal action.
I would even suggest this thread be killed to prevent any more comments that could be used in litigation.
If you are a major contributor to this thread I would highly suggest you do the same and consult with an attorney on this as I believe there is a 98% chance his family will be considering, or already has started taking legal action.
I would even suggest this thread be killed to prevent any more comments that could be used in litigation.
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Re: Octopus hunters in Cove 2 ...
by davidguilbault » Sat Nov 03, 2012 5:43 am
I'm sorry, Bob, but nothing you have said in this last post justifies your intentional crusade to identify the young man, invade his online presence, demonize him and damage his reputation.
What words the two of you exchanged in that parking lot are actually irrelevant. You aren't a game warden. The man you challenged is under no obligation to be courteous or even truthful with you, especially if he felt he was being accosted. I'm sure every one in that parking lot has a different take on what was said, and what tones they were said in. But, again that's irrelevant.
I know what I would have told you, had you confronted me in a situation like that and told me what I should and should not be doing. (The words, "Who the hell are you and why don't you mind your own business?" come to mind.) I'm from New York and we don't like it when someone gets all up in our business where they don't belong. And we do love the turn of a good sarcastic phrase. ("Yeah, I killed the mother and all the little babies too. They were screaming.")
It is also not up to you to decide what may or may not have been an "appropriate" action on his part or to tell him he couldn't continue legal fishing, that day, the next day or any day.
The facts are that you started this slanderous fire and it's burning out of control. You can't now wash your hands of it, pivot, and say it is now about "doing something positive for the community." What you launched has been searingly negative and is causing damage in someone's personal and professional life. You should make this right.
But, instead of considering the latest news reporting and the young man's seemingly sincere radio interview (Did you listen to it?), you are now calling him a liar. So, the attempt at character assassination continues on your part without abatement or repentance.
Maybe you should understand that his legal octopus hunting was none of your business - you had no business approaching him, no business challenging him and no business going online to "out" him and destroy his reputation. Maybe you should acknowledge that unkind, inappropriate words were probably said by both you and he, none of which have any lasting damage.
What is damaging is the online witch-hunt you are leading. You might admit the damage you have done, cease and desist, and apologize for that which you have caused.
Sincerely,
David Guilbault
What words the two of you exchanged in that parking lot are actually irrelevant. You aren't a game warden. The man you challenged is under no obligation to be courteous or even truthful with you, especially if he felt he was being accosted. I'm sure every one in that parking lot has a different take on what was said, and what tones they were said in. But, again that's irrelevant.
I know what I would have told you, had you confronted me in a situation like that and told me what I should and should not be doing. (The words, "Who the hell are you and why don't you mind your own business?" come to mind.) I'm from New York and we don't like it when someone gets all up in our business where they don't belong. And we do love the turn of a good sarcastic phrase. ("Yeah, I killed the mother and all the little babies too. They were screaming.")
It is also not up to you to decide what may or may not have been an "appropriate" action on his part or to tell him he couldn't continue legal fishing, that day, the next day or any day.
The facts are that you started this slanderous fire and it's burning out of control. You can't now wash your hands of it, pivot, and say it is now about "doing something positive for the community." What you launched has been searingly negative and is causing damage in someone's personal and professional life. You should make this right.
But, instead of considering the latest news reporting and the young man's seemingly sincere radio interview (Did you listen to it?), you are now calling him a liar. So, the attempt at character assassination continues on your part without abatement or repentance.
Maybe you should understand that his legal octopus hunting was none of your business - you had no business approaching him, no business challenging him and no business going online to "out" him and destroy his reputation. Maybe you should acknowledge that unkind, inappropriate words were probably said by both you and he, none of which have any lasting damage.
What is damaging is the online witch-hunt you are leading. You might admit the damage you have done, cease and desist, and apologize for that which you have caused.
Sincerely,
David Guilbault
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Re: Octopus hunters in Cove 2 ...
by Jeff Pack » Sat Nov 03, 2012 6:04 am
I sense a ringer here, a journalist?
Even my nose smells a heaping steaming pile of it.
Even my nose smells a heaping steaming pile of it.
New NWDC Rule #1
Dont Be A Goat.
Dont Be A Goat.
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Re: Octopus hunters in Cove 2 ...
by lizard0924 » Sat Nov 03, 2012 6:11 am
lynchpit2 wrote:In my opinion from Dylan's interviews he has lawyerd up.
If you read the "statement" issued by the families...http://mynorthwest.com/108/2119415/Local-Divers-Are-Furious-About-Octopus-Hunters-in-the-Puget-Sound...that would definitely seem to be what has happened. The whole statement screams "a lawyer wrote this".
I can't believe how viral this whole thing went. But I guess that is what happens when the actions of one (or two in this case) riles up the values and morals of many. Hopefully, laws will be changed and all this furor will be for some good. Historically, it has taken a firestorm such as this to prompt real change.
What would be awesome would be for the four guys involved in the initial confrontation to work together, in a public way, to effect such change. Some public relations to do damage control would be far preferable to the expense and stress of litigation.
Liz
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www.lizsundquist.com
Holy cow! I'm the Godzilla of the underworld, apparently. ~ JenBowes
I'm going to tie my spool off on your manifold and ride you like a manatee! ~ Scottsax
Lundy will forever be known as The Guy Touching Richard's Thong. ~ Spatman
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Re: Octopus hunters in Cove 2 ...
by davidguilbault » Sat Nov 03, 2012 7:38 am
Dear Bob (Grateful Diver),
You clearly don't understand or appreciate the gravity of the situation you have caused. I'm not a lawyer. I'm a former journalist, as I said previously. I know a story when I see one. This is not a story of a dead mollusk. This is a story of possible slander. In outrage over the death of an octopus you set in motion a deliberate online campaign against a young man, and it has had damaging effects.
In your original quote about the octopus incident you said of your adversary, "I'd like to identify this fellow… I want his identity public… I think we all need to know who to watch out for… I plan to do everything in my power to let him know just how much of an asshole I can be. And, if possible, to make it financially unwise for any dive shop in the area to fill this guy's tanks. Seems to me that the only power we have to stop this sort of activity is the power of public opinion ... It's time to use it."
This was an incitement to invade the young man's privacy and destroy his reputation. Your fellow divers quickly took up the online cause. Almost immediately threats against him began on this forum:
"Let him get fills...just fills with 10%...enough for him to not notice until he goes to visit the wizard...and the octopus can do as she will with him."
"This kid was a total punk. He threatened to come back and harvest another one tomorrow, so if anyone happens to be at Cove 2 in the near future, please be on the lookout for a red Ford Ranger and give him a piece of your mind."
"Can you enhance your pictures and see the VIP stickers on his tanks?"
"If you can verify that plate picture, I'll run his plate."
"So......... Anyone wanna dive C2 tomorrow to see if this <expletive deleted> is there?"
"I did a little digging and found the guy. I don't feel comfortable naming names here publicly for several reasons, but rest assured he is a shining example of a human being in every way. I will call around to the local dive shops and see if I can at the very least have them talk to the guy about not being a douchenugget,"
"Karma usually seems to find its way back to people. Other people seem to have a knack for facilitating that process."
"So I was able to find this guy in Facebook, and he has a picture of a speargun (among many other guns) and mentions that he uses it "off alki and edmonds underwater park. depends what im going after."
I could go on, but I won't. Members of this forum posted the young man's photo, his license plate number, his Facebook profile, screenshots of his online comments. They became an online mob, out to get him. Then some people went even further, with angry phone calls to his employers.
Do you honestly not get the seriousness of this? On this forum and on other forums run by news organizations covering the story (badly) he has been demonized and called the worst of names. All before he even had a chance to defend himself publicly.
As a result of this unconscionable crusade against him, before anyone even had the facts of the matter, he allegedly received death threats, has been fired from a job and has endured a barrage of insulting, threatening, negative feedback.
What you, Bob (Grateful Diver) started over a dead squid has resulted in real, serious damage to a person's life, livelihood and reputation. Do you really not get this? You say, in so many words, that you hope the young man understands the impact of his hunting. Do you really not understand the exponentially disproportionate response your actions unleashed?
You personally emailed his photo to dive shops. Others notified media outlets and government officials. Even though it was well known that he did nothing illegal. Even though you admit that you had no way of knowing if the octopus he snagged was on eggs. Even though you admit that his saying it was on eggs was probably him just baiting you.
So, how should someone interpret your intent? You need to think deeply about that question. This is not about hunting fish. This is about slandering humans. You can't un-ring a bell. Think about what your clanging has wrought and how you can be held responsible.
You seem to think that all will be well once the young man agrees with your deep concern for the wildlife in the cove. You have called on him to be responsible for his actions, yet have no inkling of how irresponsible you have been. You said you want him to understand that actions have consequences. His action killed an octopus. Your action may have damaged his life.
Man up. Understand what you have done. Admit you were wrong to launch your personal attack. You had no right to act on your righteous indignation with such a severe online assault. Apologize. Move on.
Otherwise I'd advise you to seek legal counsel, as you may have exposed yourself to charges of slander, invasion of privacy or harassment.
Cheers.
David.
P.S. Wow. Already I have been called a "heaping steaming pile of it." To the fine gentleman who insulted me, you might re-read my post where I state that I am a former journalist and posted to this thread because the mob mentality displayed here was distressing.
You clearly don't understand or appreciate the gravity of the situation you have caused. I'm not a lawyer. I'm a former journalist, as I said previously. I know a story when I see one. This is not a story of a dead mollusk. This is a story of possible slander. In outrage over the death of an octopus you set in motion a deliberate online campaign against a young man, and it has had damaging effects.
In your original quote about the octopus incident you said of your adversary, "I'd like to identify this fellow… I want his identity public… I think we all need to know who to watch out for… I plan to do everything in my power to let him know just how much of an asshole I can be. And, if possible, to make it financially unwise for any dive shop in the area to fill this guy's tanks. Seems to me that the only power we have to stop this sort of activity is the power of public opinion ... It's time to use it."
This was an incitement to invade the young man's privacy and destroy his reputation. Your fellow divers quickly took up the online cause. Almost immediately threats against him began on this forum:
"Let him get fills...just fills with 10%...enough for him to not notice until he goes to visit the wizard...and the octopus can do as she will with him."
"This kid was a total punk. He threatened to come back and harvest another one tomorrow, so if anyone happens to be at Cove 2 in the near future, please be on the lookout for a red Ford Ranger and give him a piece of your mind."
"Can you enhance your pictures and see the VIP stickers on his tanks?"
"If you can verify that plate picture, I'll run his plate."
"So......... Anyone wanna dive C2 tomorrow to see if this <expletive deleted> is there?"
"I did a little digging and found the guy. I don't feel comfortable naming names here publicly for several reasons, but rest assured he is a shining example of a human being in every way. I will call around to the local dive shops and see if I can at the very least have them talk to the guy about not being a douchenugget,"
"Karma usually seems to find its way back to people. Other people seem to have a knack for facilitating that process."
"So I was able to find this guy in Facebook, and he has a picture of a speargun (among many other guns) and mentions that he uses it "off alki and edmonds underwater park. depends what im going after."
I could go on, but I won't. Members of this forum posted the young man's photo, his license plate number, his Facebook profile, screenshots of his online comments. They became an online mob, out to get him. Then some people went even further, with angry phone calls to his employers.
Do you honestly not get the seriousness of this? On this forum and on other forums run by news organizations covering the story (badly) he has been demonized and called the worst of names. All before he even had a chance to defend himself publicly.
As a result of this unconscionable crusade against him, before anyone even had the facts of the matter, he allegedly received death threats, has been fired from a job and has endured a barrage of insulting, threatening, negative feedback.
What you, Bob (Grateful Diver) started over a dead squid has resulted in real, serious damage to a person's life, livelihood and reputation. Do you really not get this? You say, in so many words, that you hope the young man understands the impact of his hunting. Do you really not understand the exponentially disproportionate response your actions unleashed?
You personally emailed his photo to dive shops. Others notified media outlets and government officials. Even though it was well known that he did nothing illegal. Even though you admit that you had no way of knowing if the octopus he snagged was on eggs. Even though you admit that his saying it was on eggs was probably him just baiting you.
So, how should someone interpret your intent? You need to think deeply about that question. This is not about hunting fish. This is about slandering humans. You can't un-ring a bell. Think about what your clanging has wrought and how you can be held responsible.
You seem to think that all will be well once the young man agrees with your deep concern for the wildlife in the cove. You have called on him to be responsible for his actions, yet have no inkling of how irresponsible you have been. You said you want him to understand that actions have consequences. His action killed an octopus. Your action may have damaged his life.
Man up. Understand what you have done. Admit you were wrong to launch your personal attack. You had no right to act on your righteous indignation with such a severe online assault. Apologize. Move on.
Otherwise I'd advise you to seek legal counsel, as you may have exposed yourself to charges of slander, invasion of privacy or harassment.
Cheers.
David.
P.S. Wow. Already I have been called a "heaping steaming pile of it." To the fine gentleman who insulted me, you might re-read my post where I state that I am a former journalist and posted to this thread because the mob mentality displayed here was distressing.
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Re: Octopus hunters in Cove 2 ...
by seainggreen » Sat Nov 03, 2012 7:55 am
FutureSite wrote:*Laurynn Evans, (Sorry Laurynn!)
No worries!
Look forward to collaborating with you.SAVE THE GPOs!!!
Seainggreen Productions, LLC "What do you see down there?"
Friend Seainggreen on Facebook!
Seainggreen Productions, LLC "What do you see down there?"
Friend Seainggreen on Facebook!
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seainggreen - Dive-aholic
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Re: Octopus hunters in Cove 2 ...
by ktb » Sat Nov 03, 2012 8:05 am
David,
I am the person who found the young man's--then public--profile on Facebook and mentioned the spearfish comment. He was seen the night in question wearing a lacrosse sweatshirt with the name Mayer on the back, and his license plate holder is from WSU. It took a single Google search to find his--then public--Facebook profile and public comment about illegally spearfishing in a Marine Protected Area.
You lumped my comment in with others where you claim we invaded this young man's privacy and made slanderous comments. I'm confused...how did I do that when I was commenting on--then public--webpages and photos? And the last time I took Communications Law, forwarding public things to news organizations was how stories were brought to their attention.
Thank you for your comments. I invite you to join our other thread on what we're doing to protect the dive area in question so we can hopefully see a positive outcome to all of this.
I am the person who found the young man's--then public--profile on Facebook and mentioned the spearfish comment. He was seen the night in question wearing a lacrosse sweatshirt with the name Mayer on the back, and his license plate holder is from WSU. It took a single Google search to find his--then public--Facebook profile and public comment about illegally spearfishing in a Marine Protected Area.
You lumped my comment in with others where you claim we invaded this young man's privacy and made slanderous comments. I'm confused...how did I do that when I was commenting on--then public--webpages and photos? And the last time I took Communications Law, forwarding public things to news organizations was how stories were brought to their attention.
Thank you for your comments. I invite you to join our other thread on what we're doing to protect the dive area in question so we can hopefully see a positive outcome to all of this.
Kelly
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ljjames on latex seals:
K-Y is where it's at ... and it gives you an excuse to go buy K-Y, banana's and C-cell batteries at the same time to make the checker do the dog-tilt-head thing.
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ljjames on latex seals:
K-Y is where it's at ... and it gives you an excuse to go buy K-Y, banana's and C-cell batteries at the same time to make the checker do the dog-tilt-head thing.
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Re: Octopus hunters in Cove 2 ...
by John Rawlings » Sat Nov 03, 2012 8:19 am
OK - at this juncture all that is being done is finger pointing and a heavy collection of opinions on "he said-she said". it will get us nowhere. Let's see if we can leave this useless arguing behind and actually do something constructive....
The fact is that something occurred that, while legal, caused great distress amongst the local dive community. Rather than simply continuing with the argument over this, I suggest that everyone that wishes to see the Seacrest Coves made a resticted area for the underwater collection of Giant Pacific Octopuses go to this site and sign the petition:
http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/gian ... n=Petition
Those that do not agree with this, simply do not bother to sign the petition.
- John
The fact is that something occurred that, while legal, caused great distress amongst the local dive community. Rather than simply continuing with the argument over this, I suggest that everyone that wishes to see the Seacrest Coves made a resticted area for the underwater collection of Giant Pacific Octopuses go to this site and sign the petition:
http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/gian ... n=Petition
Those that do not agree with this, simply do not bother to sign the petition.
- John
“Don’t pick a fight with an old man. If he is too old to fight, he’ll just kill you.”
http://www.advanceddivermagazine.com
http://johnrawlings.smugmug.com/
http://www.advanceddivermagazine.com
http://johnrawlings.smugmug.com/
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Re: Octopus hunters in Cove 2 ...
by ktb » Sat Nov 03, 2012 8:22 am
Thank you John! Cutting and pasting links from my phone is a PITA or I would have included that.
Kelly
-----------------------------------------------------------
ljjames on latex seals:
K-Y is where it's at ... and it gives you an excuse to go buy K-Y, banana's and C-cell batteries at the same time to make the checker do the dog-tilt-head thing.
-----------------------------------------------------------
ljjames on latex seals:
K-Y is where it's at ... and it gives you an excuse to go buy K-Y, banana's and C-cell batteries at the same time to make the checker do the dog-tilt-head thing.
-
ktb - I've Got Gills
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Re: Octopus hunters in Cove 2 ...
by Scubakills » Sat Nov 03, 2012 8:23 am
So did this kid break any laws?
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Re: Octopus hunters in Cove 2 ...
by John Rawlings » Sat Nov 03, 2012 8:34 am
Scubakills wrote:So did this kid break any laws?
No, as had been mentioned time and time again throughout this entire thread.
This is why there is a petition mentioned just above for those wishing to change the existing situation and make the Seacrest coves an area closed to octopus harvest. Feel free to read the petition and to sign it....or not...as is your right.
- John
“Don’t pick a fight with an old man. If he is too old to fight, he’ll just kill you.”
http://www.advanceddivermagazine.com
http://johnrawlings.smugmug.com/
http://www.advanceddivermagazine.com
http://johnrawlings.smugmug.com/
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Re: Octopus hunters in Cove 2 ...
by Scubakills » Sat Nov 03, 2012 8:39 am
Grateful Diver wrote:David, a few of the "facts" you presented above are not factual ... and as the person who was there I will challenge them.
1. No one has ever suggested that what he did was illegal. In fact, on every interview I make it a point to state that what he did was perfectly legal ... but inappropriate.
2. My initial approach to this young man was not rude and aggressive. I asked him what he was doing ... in a normal tone of voice. When he said he "went to school for this" I pointed out that what he was doing was inappropriate, that he was hunting in the most popular dive site in Puget Sound, and that it was going to make him very unpopular with the divers in the area. He replied that he didn't care. So he had knowlledge at a time when he could easily have released the creature. He showed absolutely no inclination to do so ... and this was before there was any emotional responses from either him or me.
3. A couple of non-divers took pictures of him posing with his octopus. It was at that point that he mentioned that he might come back tomorrow and take another one. That comment wasn't even directed to me, at first ... it was directed toward two people who obviously thought this was really an impressive feat. It was at that point ... after he had been made aware of the inappropriateness of his actions, that I got upset with him.
So to suggest that he didn't know is false. There were others on the beach who heard and witnessed this.
He did make the claim that it was on eggs, and now it's not. There were others in the parking lot who heard him say it.
I have to cut this response short ... I need to meet someone at a dive site in 20 minutes. But much of what you posted is on the assumption that this young man is being truthful. He's not ... and there are others who can corroborate that fact.
We want to focus ahead on doing something positive for the community. I can't be responsible for what faceless strangers say or do ... although the family seems to think I should be. So be it. But this young man is now lying to justify his actions. And with the threats to me from his father last night, I have to now consider this an adversarial action, and respond accordingly. Everything I posted in this thread can be corroborated by others who were there at the time ... and they will be.
... Bob (Grateful Diver)
Don't try to back peddal now Bob!. You made a huge mistake and I hope this kid takes legal action against you. You made the dive community look 100X worse than he did.
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Re: Octopus hunters in Cove 2 ...
by Grateful Diver » Sat Nov 03, 2012 9:10 am
David ... I do understand the seriousness of what's going on. I was made painfully aware of it yesterday by both of Dylan's parents. I do not blame them for coming to the defense of their child. Frankly, if what his mom told me yesterday is happening ... and I don't have any reason to believe otherwise ... it's wrong and repugnant. And I do not condone it in any way.
Dylan, in a post early yesterday morning, said that if I apologized to him he would be willing to not hunt at Cove 2 anymore. Otherwise he would return and do it again. I offered, when I received that message, to apologize to him in exchange for that promise ... it would have, at that time, achieved both of our objectives.
Since then they have apparently received legal counsel and are changing their message to make it all about how evil I have treated their son. I get that ... it's what lawyers do. And in this case, they're doing a great job of making this all about me. Problem is, I'm going to have a hard time defending myself because I agree that what happened to this family is wrong.
But I didn't do that. At no time did I advocate anyone contacting this young man's family, or making threats, or involving his parents or siblings in any way. My goal was focused on making it as difficult as possible for him to hunt in that cove again. And it was predicated on two messages that Dylan himself wrote in that same message I referenced earlier ... that he did say the octopus was on eggs, and now it's not ... and that he would return to Cove 2 and hunt again.
Those words are a matter of public record, as is the fact that Dylan himself uttered them.
I was in contact with Dylan's parents three times yesterday. The first time, I called his mom ... at her request. When I called, she made it clear that she blames me for everything that's happened. I was ... and am ... sympathetic. No, it never occurred to me that would happen. I know this community quite well ... or thought I did ... and considered them more responsible than that. And for the most part they are. I have no idea who contacted them, or whether it was due to comments made here, elsewhere that Dylan's been posting, or a visceral response to the pictures on his Facebook page ... some of which were very offensive.
Yesterday I offered to meet with Dylan ... because I believed that the best way to resolve this was to sit down face to face and separate the passion from the issues. That offer was rebuffed ... understandably once lawyers were brought into it. At this point I recognize that I am now going to have to retain counsel and the best I can hope for is a costly legal defense. It sucks, but it is what it is.
I'm going to state this right now ... so that I cannot later be accused of further incitement ...
This family has EVERY RIGHT to defend themselves ... and if they perceive me as a threat, or blame me for harm, they have EVERY RIGHT to pursue that. I understand that, and respect it.
I have EVERY RIGHT to defend myself against that action ... and I will do so with every bit of resource and conviction I can muster. I'm not perfect ... nobody is. But I did not do anything with the intent of causing harm to this family. I did everything I did and said everything I said with the intent of preventing Dylan from carrying out his promise to return to Cove 2 for another octopus.
I believe I've succeeded at that. If there's a greater price to pay for that success ... so be it. I hold no ill will toward him or his family, and I want no ill-conceived actions from anyone else toward this family. But, frankly, I don't believe they're coming from any of the regular members here anyway.
The responses to this thead have moved far beyond anything I could have conceived them to be ... both good and bad ... when I created this thread. The good will have to be followed through now by others ... so that this personal issue doesn't get in the way of the goal of preserving Cove 2 as a safe haven for octopus. I will take full responsibility for my actions and words in terms of how they've affected Dylan. I in no way wanted ... or thought ... that this would impact him or his family in the way that it has. And for that I am ... truly ... sorry. Seems a bit late for that, but it warrants saying anyway.
I realize that this post will be scrutinized by legal counsel, and carefully picked over for ways to use my own words against me. That's how our legal system works ... and so be it. I'm not a legal mind. I act on what I believe to be right and wrong. What happened to Dylan's family was wrong ... I have to own my responsibility for how my words impacted them. And I do ... and will ... for no reason other than that it's the right thing to do.
To the Mayer family ... you have my sincere apology. However you choose to move from here is up to you.
... Bob (Grateful Diver)
Dylan, in a post early yesterday morning, said that if I apologized to him he would be willing to not hunt at Cove 2 anymore. Otherwise he would return and do it again. I offered, when I received that message, to apologize to him in exchange for that promise ... it would have, at that time, achieved both of our objectives.
Since then they have apparently received legal counsel and are changing their message to make it all about how evil I have treated their son. I get that ... it's what lawyers do. And in this case, they're doing a great job of making this all about me. Problem is, I'm going to have a hard time defending myself because I agree that what happened to this family is wrong.
But I didn't do that. At no time did I advocate anyone contacting this young man's family, or making threats, or involving his parents or siblings in any way. My goal was focused on making it as difficult as possible for him to hunt in that cove again. And it was predicated on two messages that Dylan himself wrote in that same message I referenced earlier ... that he did say the octopus was on eggs, and now it's not ... and that he would return to Cove 2 and hunt again.
Those words are a matter of public record, as is the fact that Dylan himself uttered them.
I was in contact with Dylan's parents three times yesterday. The first time, I called his mom ... at her request. When I called, she made it clear that she blames me for everything that's happened. I was ... and am ... sympathetic. No, it never occurred to me that would happen. I know this community quite well ... or thought I did ... and considered them more responsible than that. And for the most part they are. I have no idea who contacted them, or whether it was due to comments made here, elsewhere that Dylan's been posting, or a visceral response to the pictures on his Facebook page ... some of which were very offensive.
Yesterday I offered to meet with Dylan ... because I believed that the best way to resolve this was to sit down face to face and separate the passion from the issues. That offer was rebuffed ... understandably once lawyers were brought into it. At this point I recognize that I am now going to have to retain counsel and the best I can hope for is a costly legal defense. It sucks, but it is what it is.
I'm going to state this right now ... so that I cannot later be accused of further incitement ...
This family has EVERY RIGHT to defend themselves ... and if they perceive me as a threat, or blame me for harm, they have EVERY RIGHT to pursue that. I understand that, and respect it.
I have EVERY RIGHT to defend myself against that action ... and I will do so with every bit of resource and conviction I can muster. I'm not perfect ... nobody is. But I did not do anything with the intent of causing harm to this family. I did everything I did and said everything I said with the intent of preventing Dylan from carrying out his promise to return to Cove 2 for another octopus.
I believe I've succeeded at that. If there's a greater price to pay for that success ... so be it. I hold no ill will toward him or his family, and I want no ill-conceived actions from anyone else toward this family. But, frankly, I don't believe they're coming from any of the regular members here anyway.
The responses to this thead have moved far beyond anything I could have conceived them to be ... both good and bad ... when I created this thread. The good will have to be followed through now by others ... so that this personal issue doesn't get in the way of the goal of preserving Cove 2 as a safe haven for octopus. I will take full responsibility for my actions and words in terms of how they've affected Dylan. I in no way wanted ... or thought ... that this would impact him or his family in the way that it has. And for that I am ... truly ... sorry. Seems a bit late for that, but it warrants saying anyway.
I realize that this post will be scrutinized by legal counsel, and carefully picked over for ways to use my own words against me. That's how our legal system works ... and so be it. I'm not a legal mind. I act on what I believe to be right and wrong. What happened to Dylan's family was wrong ... I have to own my responsibility for how my words impacted them. And I do ... and will ... for no reason other than that it's the right thing to do.
To the Mayer family ... you have my sincere apology. However you choose to move from here is up to you.
... Bob (Grateful Diver)
Threats and ultimatums are never the best answer. Public humiliation via Photoshop is always better - airsix
Come visit me at http://www.nwgratefuldiver.com/
Come visit me at http://www.nwgratefuldiver.com/
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Re: Octopus hunters in Cove 2 ...
by Waynne Fowler » Sat Nov 03, 2012 9:57 am
Imho. Any good thing that could come of this thread is already in motion. The only direction this thread can go now is heading down a path no one.... bob, scott or dyln wish..... its now turned into a place to call people names and and argue...
Im embarrassed as a diver to see that we've even started calling each other name. This is not how we want the world to see us is it.
I hope this thread gets locked down soon.. this ponies been dead for a while now.
Im embarrassed as a diver to see that we've even started calling each other name. This is not how we want the world to see us is it.
I hope this thread gets locked down soon.. this ponies been dead for a while now.
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Re: Octopus hunters in Cove 2 ...
by spatman » Sat Nov 03, 2012 10:06 am
Yes, it's time to end this circus. Please direct your attention to positive outcomes by visiting the thread started about the effort to protect the GPOs in Seacrest Park:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=19464
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=19464
"The sea does not reward those who are too anxious, too greedy or too impatient.
Patience, patience, patience is what the sea teaches. Patience and faith."
--Anne Morrow Lindbergh
Patience, patience, patience is what the sea teaches. Patience and faith."
--Anne Morrow Lindbergh
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