Epi-Pen in a Wetsuit?

General banter about diving and why we love it.
Post Reply
ggthatcher
Frequent Bubbler
Posts: 28
Joined: Sun Jan 19, 2014 9:39 am

Epi-Pen in a Wetsuit?

Post by ggthatcher »

Hi,

I read through the thread with interest about "when" to apply an epi, but I really already know that. I have epi's and I keep them with me all the time. What I've been told will kill me is wasps and hornets. However, I'm sure there are all sorts of things that could sting me underwater and I'm guessing that it would be wisdom to have one underwater. If I'm thinking this through, a logical place would be at the wrist. Myself or my buddy could get it out and I'd get my jab and then start working my way to the top.

However, does anyone even know in Epi will go through a suit?

Thanks!!
User avatar
Desert Diver
Extreme Diving Machine
Posts: 472
Joined: Tue May 22, 2012 9:20 pm

Re: Epi-Pen in a Wetsuit?

Post by Desert Diver »

I wonder if you would have the same reaction to anything underwater? I'm extremely allergic to honeybee stings but wasps and hornets just hurt.
User avatar
renoun
I've Got Gills
Posts: 1512
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2008 3:43 pm

Re: Epi-Pen in a Wetsuit?

Post by renoun »

I doubt that your Epi-Pen would handle repeated salt water immersion. You really need to inject an Epi-Pen into a large muscle which is why the thigh is a recommended site. The wrist is problematic because it has veins, arteries, nerves, and tendons all running near the surface. It shouldn't be that big of a deal to snip a patch (that could be easily repaired) out of your wetsuit if you need a dose, odds are you are going to wind up naked in the back of an ambulance with what used to be your wetsuit outside on the ground any way.

You and your buddies should carry trauma shears and having a back up set in your car with your Epi-Pen isn't a bad idea. Part of your pre-dive briefing needs to include disclosing your allergies, where your rescue meds are, and how to get in to your car.
"Just to be clear, doing the Diamond Knot requires at the minimum double IPAs to be DIR." - MattleyCrue
"Mmmm....... Oreos!
They didn't look too good when I was spitting in my mask for dive #2!" - cardiver
User avatar
Jeff Pack
I've Got Gills
Posts: 3086
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2011 8:51 am

Re: Epi-Pen in a Wetsuit?

Post by Jeff Pack »

But the interesting question is whether a stinging Jelly (Lions Mane for example) would trigger a reaction?
=============================================

- I got a good squirt in my mouth
- I would imagine that there would be a large amount of involuntary gagging
- I don't know about you but I'm not into swallowing it

CCR discussion on Caustic Cocktails.
User avatar
LCF
I've Got Gills
Posts: 5697
Joined: Tue May 30, 2006 5:05 pm

Re: Epi-Pen in a Wetsuit?

Post by LCF »

I don't know what the cross-reactivity between Hymenoptera venom and jellyfish toxin is -- I doubt there is much, but you would need to talk to a toxicologist to be sure. I also don't know what the needle length on an epi-pen is, which is the determinant of whether it will get through neoprene. (The needle will go through the suit -- the question is whether it can then go deep enough into the limb to deliver the dose properly.)
"Sometimes, when your world is going sideways, the second best thing to everything working out right, is knowing you are loved..." ljjames
User avatar
CaptnJack
I've Got Gills
Posts: 7776
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2006 2:29 pm

Re: Epi-Pen in a Wetsuit?

Post by CaptnJack »

LCF wrote:I don't know what the cross-reactivity between Hymenoptera venom and jellyfish toxin is -- I doubt there is much, but you would need to talk to a toxicologist to be sure. I also don't know what the needle length on an epi-pen is, which is the determinant of whether it will get through neoprene. (The needle will go through the suit -- the question is whether it can then go deep enough into the limb to deliver the dose properly.)
Apparently this question has been asked before...
http://www.aaaai.org/ask-the-expert/cro ... venom.aspx

Other than your lip, I don't see a whole lot of places you could get stung by anything underwater while in a wetsuit with hood. Unfortunately your lip is a rather sensitive spot. If you smear Vaseline on your exposed skin around your mask and lips you can help avoid the worst of the stings if you are particularly sensitive to them. It wouldn't totally preclude them however.

I don't think an epi-pen would survive more than about 2 dives. If nothing else the needle would be totally contaminated with all sorts of marine bacteria. I don't think you want to be carrying those deep into your muscle via a needle stick (tetanus anyone?). For reliable (mostly clean) use I'd either get a small canister to keep it dry or leave it in the car. You wouldn't be able to open the canister underwater due to the pressure, but you could at the surface. If you really are having a reaction, then cut up the sleeve of your suit and inject into your upper arm. No its not the proper location in your thigh, but its a IM injection, almost any muscle will do. Better than suffocating.
Sounder wrote:Under normal circumstances, I would never tell another man how to shave his balls... but this device should not be kept secret.
User avatar
60south
Pelagic
Posts: 985
Joined: Sun Aug 10, 2008 1:24 pm

Re: Epi-Pen in a Wetsuit?

Post by 60south »

Assuming the OP was stung while on a dive, how long does it take for a life-threatening reaction to occur?

I'm wondering if there would always be enough time to get to the surface and take care of the problem there, keeping the epi-pen in the car.
User avatar
Desert Diver
Extreme Diving Machine
Posts: 472
Joined: Tue May 22, 2012 9:20 pm

Re: Epi-Pen in a Wetsuit?

Post by Desert Diver »

60south wrote:Assuming the OP was stung while on a dive, how long does it take for a life-threatening reaction to occur?

I'm wondering if there would always be enough time to get to the surface and take care of the problem there, keeping the epi-pen in the car.
If it were like a bee sting on someone who was really allergic, they wouldn't make shore. My bet is that you won't have a really bad allergic reaction to anything down there until you have been exposed more than once.
LowDrag
Extreme Diving Machine
Posts: 456
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2012 7:52 am

Re: Epi-Pen in a Wetsuit?

Post by LowDrag »

I have been stung on the face other than my lips by a Lion's Mane Jelly. It got me on the cheek just below my mask up to my cheek bone. It stung like a biaaaaatch. Can I say that here???
User avatar
spatman
I've Got Gills
Posts: 10881
Joined: Wed May 30, 2007 7:06 am

Re: Epi-Pen in a Wetsuit?

Post by spatman »

I'm certainly not an immunologist or something-stung-me expert, but when I was younger I was deathly allergic to bee stings, yet got stung by jellyfish on numerous occasions with no major problems.
Image
User avatar
Tom Nic
I've Got Gills
Posts: 9368
Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2006 6:26 pm

Re: Epi-Pen in a Wetsuit?

Post by Tom Nic »

Fascinating conversation.

I'm guessing that folks in Australia or places that have more dangerous jellies have dealt with this on some level? Of course the worst of the worst will kill just about anyone, whether or not you have a bee sting allergy.
More Pics Than You Have Time To Look AT
"Anyone who thinks this place is over moderated is bat-crazy anarchist." -Ben, Airsix
"Warning: No dive masters are going to be there, Just a bunch of old fat guys taking pictures of fish." -Bassman
User avatar
LCF
I've Got Gills
Posts: 5697
Joined: Tue May 30, 2006 5:05 pm

Re: Epi-Pen in a Wetsuit?

Post by LCF »

Anaphylaxis can kill in minutes.

To the OP: I'd consult with my allergist. Perhaps desensitization treatments might be useful.
"Sometimes, when your world is going sideways, the second best thing to everything working out right, is knowing you are loved..." ljjames
ggthatcher
Frequent Bubbler
Posts: 28
Joined: Sun Jan 19, 2014 9:39 am

Re: Epi-Pen in a Wetsuit?

Post by ggthatcher »

Thanks for all the advice everyone. I've got a few key summary takeaways from this discussion so far.

1. Most important. Tell the DM about the fact that I use and EPI Pen and where it is.
2. I hadn't considered the pen would be compromised at depth. Makes perfect sense and I'm not taking it down with me.
3. Make sure it is in my kit, easy to find, on the boat or on the shore where my dive buddy can quickly find it.

All very timely. It is now 10pm. I'm heading to bed and waking up at 3:30am to catch my flight to Cozumel.
In the water Sunday morning.

Thanks All!
User avatar
Dusty2
I've Got Gills
Posts: 6388
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2007 9:04 pm

Re: Epi-Pen in a Wetsuit?

Post by Dusty2 »

Good luck and have a safe and enjoyable trip!
User avatar
pogiguy05
I've Got Gills
Posts: 1992
Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2007 8:14 am

Re: Epi-Pen in a Wetsuit?

Post by pogiguy05 »

Just my two cents but for the importance of having the epi pen ASAP and in the heat of the moment of your buddy needing to do a rescue type scenario. Could you have your epi pen inside a water proof depth proof container, that keeps it sterile and usable while on a dive? I just imagine in worst case scenario with gear and all getting to shore and then having to run to the car to garb the epi pen then run back kills alot of important time. Having it attached to your gear in some kind of water proof/depth proof case would make it instantly accessible once on shore. I dont know the size of an epi pen but I am thinking an old straight dive light housing would be a great place to store it. Just make sure to label it so that people would know what was inside.
Jeff Castor
Alaska-Herb
Aquaphile
Posts: 158
Joined: Mon Feb 21, 2011 12:19 pm

Re: Epi-Pen in a Wetsuit?

Post by Alaska-Herb »

I wonder if EPI PENS have ever been tested at depth pressures? I personally doubt it, and i doubt the manufacture would ever take any position other than don't do it, simply because they have not done the research for their own protection . I think you might want to take any expired epi pens on a test dive. Having it in a Housing of sorts would allow it to be there with you but would it function at depth when you attempted to inject it? I wonder if the auto injector would be able to fire or would prematurely fire with the increased pressure. If you need your epi at 90 feet by the time you get to the surface and on the boat or beach you are going to be in trouble. I would really be interested in hearing about your experiments with any expired pens. may you could take a pen in a water proof case of your choosing to depth and then try to inject into a orange and see how it went.

Please post what you find out
thanks
Herb
User avatar
CaptnJack
I've Got Gills
Posts: 7776
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2006 2:29 pm

Re: Epi-Pen in a Wetsuit?

Post by CaptnJack »

There's a lot of supposition here that jellys are cross reaction with hymenoptera (bees, wasps etc). They are completely different classes of organisms. They might or might not have ANY cross reactivity at all. Perhaps the best approach would be discuss this with your allergist and possibly look into personalized sensitivity testing if you remain concerned.

I would not be using any needles contaminated with salt water at all, salt water is loaded with billions of bacteria and viruses and carrying those deep into your muscle might actually be a worse way to go than anaphylaxis.
Sounder wrote:Under normal circumstances, I would never tell another man how to shave his balls... but this device should not be kept secret.
User avatar
Joshua Smith
I've Got Gills
Posts: 10242
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2006 9:32 pm

Re: Epi-Pen in a Wetsuit?

Post by Joshua Smith »

CaptnJack wrote:There's a lot of supposition here that jellys are cross reaction with hymenoptera (bees, wasps etc). They are completely different classes of organisms. They might or might not have ANY cross reactivity at all. Perhaps the best approach would be discuss this with your allergist and possibly look into personalized sensitivity testing if you remain concerned.

I would not be using any needles contaminated with salt water at all, salt water is loaded with billions of bacteria and viruses and carrying those deep into your muscle might actually be a worse way to go than anaphylaxis.
Good points. Another thought: I have never once heard of a diver suffering a life-threatening allergic reaction to anything while underwater. Has anyone here? It must be incredibly rare, because many of us study dive accidents/deaths like they were holy scripture or something. Not saying it's impossible, just saying it's gotta be up there with 2 headed goats or honest politicians.
Maritime Documentation Society

"To venture into the terrible loneliness, one must have something greater than greed. Love. One needs love for life, for intrigue, for mystery."
User avatar
johndo88
Compulsive Diver
Posts: 321
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2012 3:50 pm

Re: Epi-Pen in a Wetsuit?

Post by johndo88 »

ggthatcher wrote:Thanks for all the advice everyone. I've got a few key summary takeaways from this discussion so far.

1. Most important. Tell the DM about the fact that I use and EPI Pen and where it is.
2. I hadn't considered the pen would be compromised at depth. Makes perfect sense and I'm not taking it down with me.
3. Make sure it is in my kit, easy to find, on the boat or on the shore where my dive buddy can quickly find it.
...
4. Include a set of trauma shears with your Epi Pen (use a rubber band to attach the trauma shears to the Epi Pen).

Just a suggestion
ggthatcher
Frequent Bubbler
Posts: 28
Joined: Sun Jan 19, 2014 9:39 am

Re: Epi-Pen in a Wetsuit?

Post by ggthatcher »

Hi all,
Here is what I did.

The pen was stored in my camera bag. I also took along my test pen which shows how easy it is to pop the top and how to stab me. We talked about the fact that if I were in some sort of distress, what signal I would use, and how restrained breathing was. We had a signal that was "enough, up NOW". it was essentially a 2 handed strangleation followed up with a "double thumb up". THis was where the thumb of one hands touches the other hand which is also thumbs up.

Never did need it, but interestingly, it appears we did get into some possible Jelly Fish Larva which appears to be pretty common in the Cozumel area. Both my son and I came home with hives.
Post Reply