Getting drysuit experience advice

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ggthatcher
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Getting drysuit experience advice

Post by ggthatcher »

In order to get more dives in without freezing or flying to warm water, my son and I are getting all our own equipment and it appears there are a few different options for trying things out and starting to get more experience with drysuits. I'm looking to see if I'm leaving anything out or if I'm on the right track. We live in SW Washington, so anything requires a drive unless we do Cold Lake which is complicated as we then have altitude in the mix as well.

Options.
1. Take ourselves with our equipment we've never used before and head up for a dive, with a DM, to help us out.
2. Sign up for the drysuit class, do the training, and do the 2 dives to get the full cert.
3. Here in Vancouver, we have one place with a pool that will do a overview dive so we get used to our equipment, check everything out, make sure we arn't putting things on upside down, etc.. Than, follow this up with either 1 or 2 above.

My thought is to do the pool dive to get us comfortable in our gear, and then go ahead and sign up for the full drysuit class.

Thoughts?
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BillZ
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Re: Getting drysuit experience advice

Post by BillZ »

I'd say take the class. There's a huge difference between diving a drysuit and diving a wetsuit. You need to learn how to manage your buoyancy and what to do if you start to cork. It probably takes about 15 - 20 dives to get fully comfortable with the drysuit and getting instruction on the basics in a controlled environment will help shorten the learning curve.

If you're buying your suits new from a shop see if they'll throw the class in for free.
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Dusty2
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Re: Getting drysuit experience advice

Post by Dusty2 »

I would recommend doing the pool session and finding out how you do. IMHO the dry suit class is a waste of money. I never took it and don't know of any of my dive buddies that did either. Just find an experienced diver who is willing to work with you for the first couple of dives then it's just a matter of dive dive dive till you start to feel good in your gear. For most diver it isn't that big a deal to acclimate to a dry suit. If you come up this way I'm sure you will be able to find buddies willing to work with you. I'm sure someone will chime in here and offer help. I would but unfortunately I'm in dry dock.
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dwashbur
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Re: Getting drysuit experience advice

Post by dwashbur »

I'll echo what Dusty2 said. I had one pool session, and it wasn't that informative. The main thing I learned was not to over-inflate. Beyond that, it's a matter of practice. I would do the pool session, then hook up with someone who knows the ropes and go diving with them. Honestly, mastering the dry suit is not that hard, it just takes a little practice. Kind of like everything else in life.
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LowDrag
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Re: Getting drysuit experience advice

Post by LowDrag »

Not to discount what Dusty has said because I took the dry suit course and he is right, it is pretty simple stuff. BUT...If you ever go anywhere and need to rent a dry suit due to a failure of your own suit you will be out of luck without a DS card. I remember another member here who had a chance to go diving but did not bring her gear IIRC or maybe someone with her needed a DS. Anyway, the person needing the DS could not get one on their own due to not being able to produce a card. Kind of a pain in the backside.

As for managing the bubble and getting into your "groove" I can't speak about a shell suit but I can say that diving my Whites is just about as close to a wet suit as you can get IMO. I took right off in my DS and still love it. I will admit that it is a bit of a PITA to get in/out of but well worth the little extra effort IMO.

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fmerkel
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Re: Getting drysuit experience advice

Post by fmerkel »

The key point there is "someone willing to work with you". I agree it's mostly experience, but you can have directed decent experience, or you can have a less effective time with someone that doesn't know how to work with you.

The concept it not difficult, but then to ride a bike you simply have to not fall over. The key is in the 'doing'. I've seen one person pick up a drysuit reasonably competently in a single dive, and others that took dozens and dozens to finally get buoyancy and trim right.

Do a bit of reading and try to determine how comfortable you are now, how that might translate into a new buoyancy device to manage, and if you have a patient mentor that won't take you below 20' until you can show you are getting the hang of it.
http://www.drysuitdiving.org/
http://www.dui-online.com/pdf/drysuitmanual.pdf

I take my new drysuit divers out and do "squares". Bring extra weight + leg weights into the water. In chest deep water you play with amount and position until you have neutral buoyancy and reasonable trim. That can take awhile.
Then you swim to 5' deep, stop, try to hover, turn right, swim a bit, stop, hover, turn right, try to go to chest deep water without popping. Stand up and discuss that and play with weights as necessary.
Continue process going to 10'. Here you will have to add air on the way down and back up. The shallows create the most changes and the biggest challenge.
Keep practicing and adjusting for each "square" depth. Add another 5' only when you can do several laps without problems.
Once you get to 20' OK I start adding inverted over inflation recovery, tuck and rolls, arched swim down and dump, and other more advanced maneuvers.
When those are comfortable you can start considering a bit of depth.
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FlyinV
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Re: Getting drysuit experience advice

Post by FlyinV »

I really like the idea of you taking a class and also playing in the pool with the gear.
The tips you can pick up from an instructor or dive buddy that has done a lot of drysuit dives will make the whole experience of learning to dive a drysuit much easier/faster/safer.

If your in the Vancouver area quite a few people go up to Yale and Merwin lake if they are looking for a quick place to test out some gear or get in a dive. This time of the year boats are a concern there, but its close by.
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Re: Getting drysuit experience advice

Post by LowDrag »

fmerkel wrote:The key point there is "someone willing to work with you". I agree it's mostly experience, but you can have directed decent experience, or you can have a less effective time with someone that doesn't know how to work with you.

The concept it not difficult, but then to ride a bike you simply have to not fall over. The key is in the 'doing'. I've seen one person pick up a drysuit reasonably competently in a single dive, and others that took dozens and dozens to finally get buoyancy and trim right.

Do a bit of reading and try to determine how comfortable you are now, how that might translate into a new buoyancy device to manage, and if you have a patient mentor that won't take you below 20' until you can show you are getting the hang of it.
http://www.drysuitdiving.org/
http://www.dui-online.com/pdf/drysuitmanual.pdf

I take my new drysuit divers out and do "squares". Bring extra weight + leg weights into the water. In chest deep water you play with amount and position until you have neutral buoyancy and reasonable trim. That can take awhile.
Then you swim to 5' deep, stop, try to hover, turn right, swim a bit, stop, hover, turn right, try to go to chest deep water without popping. Stand up and discuss that and play with weights as necessary.
Continue process going to 10'. Here you will have to add air on the way down and back up. The shallows create the most changes and the biggest challenge.
Keep practicing and adjusting for each "square" depth. Add another 5' only when you can do several laps without problems.
Once you get to 20' OK I start adding inverted over inflation recovery, tuck and rolls, arched swim down and dump, and other more advanced maneuvers.
When those are comfortable you can start considering a bit of depth.
All I can say is wow! Unless I am mistaken that is a whole lot more than what we got out of our dry suit class. We swam around the pool at ~3' total depth and stopped every once in a while to do fin pivots and take a deep breath to see how it affected our buoyancy in the water column. We didn't do any weight checks or trimming of our gear. Then we went into the deeper pool and learned how to get out of an inverted uncontrolled ascent. We also practiced dumping air using the "chicken wing" method from our shoulder dump. The following weekend we went to a local lake and did a swim around with the assistant instructor to a max depth of 23'. Now I am feeling like we got shorted on our course. Maybe I should take back what I said up above?
Last edited by LowDrag on Sun Aug 24, 2014 8:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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fmerkel
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Re: Getting drysuit experience advice

Post by fmerkel »

I had an idiot pop feet first from 60' off Day Island a few years back. He claimed to be an advanced diver with drysuit experience and swam a mile a week in the pool. He had never been to DIW and was looking to go there.
After the incident it was revealed this was his 2nd dry suit dive, the previous one having been 6 months prior. No instruction, no practice....no brains. After I got over the scare (he wasn't hurt), you can probably imagine my displeasure.
I worked with him for 30" in 10' of water once we got near shore, since the dive was over anyway. Complete klutz, poor diver, should have never gone past 20'. Why do some people fabricate like that?
I got a bunch of 'newbie signals' on the way out but I just didn't process them. I didn't know the guy so I let it ride and he had told a 'good story' under questioning. Some lessons get learned the hard way.
Last edited by fmerkel on Fri Aug 22, 2014 9:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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bradmond
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Re: Getting drysuit experience advice

Post by bradmond »

You don't say what type of drysuit you will use, neoprene or shell. Does make a difference, neoprene is warmer.
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CaptnJack
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Re: Getting drysuit experience advice

Post by CaptnJack »

bradmond wrote:You don't say what type of drysuit you will use, neoprene or shell. Does make a difference, neoprene is warmer.
Negative on the warmer. It might be it might not be, depends on the undergarments and depth (neoprene compresses and loses thermal performance a depth, shells don't).

I would just go practice although I would also probably ignore the altitude of cold lake too (on a 20ft practice dive its not going to be relevant IMHO). Most of us traveling bring our drysuits anyway (shells are good for this), you don't need a card for it. YMMV
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Dashrynn
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Re: Getting drysuit experience advice

Post by Dashrynn »

CaptnJack wrote:
bradmond wrote:You don't say what type of drysuit you will use, neoprene or shell. Does make a difference, neoprene is warmer.
Negative on the warmer. It might be it might not be, depends on the undergarments and depth (neoprene compresses and loses thermal performance a depth, shells don't).
So "compressed" neoprene is a myth?
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fmerkel
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Re: Getting drysuit experience advice

Post by fmerkel »

Difficult to be sure since there are so many different qualities of neoprene. Just because it says it is Xmm doesn't necessarily describe how it will do in the water.
I used a Bare 7mm full thickness suit for a couple months. I rapidly learned I had to use about the same undergarments as my OS shell if I went below 50'.
Then I got a Seasoft Ti5000 5mm compressed. I dropped 6#, and increased bottom time 10" over the shell suit. 8 years later it still is leak free and working fine. On the rare occasion I've had to go back to my shell I'm definitely colder and I have a thick undergarment for that.
I know the top end High Tide uses a similar high grade neoprene.
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CaptnJack
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Re: Getting drysuit experience advice

Post by CaptnJack »

The only completely "compressed" neoprene is the DUI CF200 stuff. It does not compress any more since the bubbles are all crushed out of it already. Its just a sheet of bubble-less neoprene. Not much in the way of thermal capacity with it (its trivially warmer than a shell with that same undergaments)

Everything else is a bit of a crap shoot as Fritz describes. My old Apollo was terrible, it was labelled compressed, but it crushed much more at depth, lost buoyancy and lost thermal capacity too. 5mm my butt, more like 1mm at depth. The High Tides are far thicker and denser so when they compress the relative loss of thermal capacity is less. The 7mm Bare is not pre-compressed at all and will lose a lot of thermal capacity and buoyancy at depth. I think they even given them a 150ft depth rating.
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Re: Getting drysuit experience advice

Post by Grateful Diver »

CaptnJack wrote:The only completely "compressed" neoprene is the DUI CF200 stuff.
Used to be true ... but the Bare XCS2 I've been diving for the past couple of years is also a completely "compressed" neo suit. Dives a lot like a shell suit. And while I can't say it's a lot warmer than the trilams I'm used to diving, there's enough of a difference that I can notice it if I use the same undergarments wearing either it or my Santi eSpace.

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CaptnJack
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Re: Getting drysuit experience advice

Post by CaptnJack »

Grateful Diver wrote:
CaptnJack wrote:The only completely "compressed" neoprene is the DUI CF200 stuff.
Used to be true ... but the Bare XCS2 I've been diving for the past couple of years is also a completely "compressed" neo suit. Dives a lot like a shell suit. And while I can't say it's a lot warmer than the trilams I'm used to diving, there's enough of a difference that I can notice it if I use the same undergarments wearing either it or my Santi eSpace.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
Fair enough, I can tell a very slight difference between my cf200 and my shell too. It also takes 2lbs more to sink. Same undergarments in both.
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Re: Getting drysuit experience advice

Post by drgoogle »

I would say take a dry suit class. Of course, like everything in diving, you need to have a good instructor. Also, I'd advise you to have your own gear, but not necessarily the dry suit.

From my experience, getting the certification recently from Bob, I had a difficult time adjusting to the rental gear in addition to the dry suit. More than likely with my own gear, I would have been able to handle the dives better.

At the same time, I agree with others who have commented that two dives in a dry suit is not enough. The more practice you get, the better you will be.
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inflex
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Re: Getting drysuit experience advice

Post by inflex »

To the OP, I'd say it depends on your comfort and experience in the water. Are you a confident in the water, or do you find diving a bit challenging, grappling with all the gear and buoyancy?

Diving with a drysuit is not rocket science. It's just different. How you adapt to the difference depends on you.

At a minimum, I suggest getting someone to give you a through explanation. How to don and check suit, how to dive with it, what dangers to avoid, how to get out of danger should something occur, and any other tips and tricks. You can probably gather enough information on the web, on this forum, or in a chat in person. Then, decide if you want a class or a DM.
drgoogle wrote:Also, I'd advise you to have your own gear, but not necessarily the dry suit.
I don't understand why you would recommend buying all the gear except the drysuit, unless you plan on doing mostly tropical/warm water diving. As long as you plan on diving frequently in cold waters, it seems the drysuit (along with a computer) is probably the most critical piece of equipment to own. Familiarity with a drysuit will strongly enhance your comfort and buoyancy control, making dives much more pleasant.
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Re: Getting drysuit experience advice

Post by drgoogle »

Let me clarify. Having your own gear will allow you to become more comfortable when diving because you will understand how your gear works and can figure out buoyancy and trim issues a lot better than diving with rental gear. That said, I wouldn't spend a bunch of money on a dry suit without getting proper training and getting an idea about what's out there in the world of dry suits. Training will definitely give you an edge about knowing what your dry suit options are.

If someone has been diving with a wetsuit for awhile and getting a dry suit is now a necessity because of the cold PNW, then purchasing a dry suit makes sense. I assume if you've been diving for awhile, having your own gear would be a normal thing, even if it's only a piece here and there.
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Re: Getting drysuit experience advice

Post by ggthatcher »

Hi all, I'm the OP.

I thought I'd report in and let you know how I'm progressing with the training and getting up to speed.
We have almost all our gear put together at this point. It appears I may have to get a large BCD as the L I'm using doesn't look like it is going to work on top of the drysuit.

We did an in pool orientation (in Vancouver) this past Wednesday night. We did all the normal stuff and the guy who was helping us did a great job with caring for our gear, how to get it on, off, etc.. We also spent quite a bit of time exchanging hoses and making sure our stuff worked.

We got into the pool and felt what a leg squeeze until you start adding some air. We got horizontal and added a bit at a time. We held on to a hook at the bottom of the pool and let our feet fill up and then rocketing up to the top. Did it the wrong way and then the right way (tuck and roll) so we could get used to things. Found out that my son needed smaller wrist seals since his wrists are so small. That was fixed yesterday.

Tomorrow, we head up for 2 dives with Bob (Grateful Diver). He is working with us on skills and getting used to the suits. From what he's said, it looks like we are not going deeper than about 40 and working on key skills and then repeating them in the 2nd dive. I think we are very prepared. However, we are not taking chances. We will continue to reach out for advice and skilled mentors who can help us progress up the experience curve.
Will be diving Redondo tomorrow if any of you are there.

The suits we ended up with are the Waterproof D1 suits with the integrated liner.
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Re: Getting drysuit experience advice

Post by Grateful Diver »

Sadly we ended up having to postpone the class, due to 2-5 foot vis. Those are interesting suits ... never saw one before, but they look to be pretty well-built. I'm as interested as Garen to see how well they perform in Puget Sound conditions.

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