Gear for a newbie??

[Acquatic]

Hi all,

I think I am jumping the gun on the gear when I havent yet done my certification but I was wondering from where did you buy your first gear from?

Boy the whole set is expensive :(. So far my best bet is, used and from craigslist.

What do you suggest?

Thanks in advance.

[pogiguy05]

Well first Merry Christmas to you and your family.

I am sure you will get ALOT of opinions on gear here. I have been diving for almost 3 years and if you one who needs to watch your budget, then yes keep an eye on craigslist as I have scored some gear from there. Just be careful and it would be best to ask other opinions before you lay your money down. I got lucky and found a dry suit for $450 that I am still wearing today and have only had to replace seals twice. All your gear is important but I would focus on buying good first and second stage regulators. I would suggest getting a drysuit and also taking a class to help you learn about diving it. What kind of gear do you have or do you have any? You will get alot of great useful information from people on this board. Also once you do get certified alot of the people here would gladly go diving with you and let you try some of the extra gear they have gotten over the years. If no one has warned you Scuba Diving is addictive and expensive habit.

I remember being a newbie and I would gladly help you out with some slow easy diving when you get your certifications.

[Acquatic]

Well first Merry Christmas to you and your family.

I am sure you will get ALOT of opinions on gear here. I have been diving for almost 3 years and if you one who needs to watch your budget, then yes keep an eye on craigslist as I have scored some gear from there. Just be careful and it would be best to ask other opinions before you lay your money down. I got lucky and found a dry suit for $450 that I am still wearing today and have only had to replace seals twice. All your gear is important but I would focus on buying good first and second stage regulators. I would suggest getting a drysuit and also taking a class to help you learn about diving it. What kind of gear do you have or do you have any? You will get alot of great useful information from people on this board. Also once you do get certified alot of the people here would gladly go diving with you and let you try some of the extra gear they have gotten over the years. If no one has warned you Scuba Diving is addictive and expensive habit.

I remember being a newbie and I would gladly help you out with some slow easy diving when you get your certifications.

Hi pogiguy,

Merry Christmas to you too. Well I don't have any gear at all right now . I have also thought of joining a diving school which gives me everything I really don't want to buy anything before trying out coz at this point I still don't know that diving is my passion. I might get addicted to it so much that I buy everything new or it can also go other way round

My plan is to get certified and do good Amt of dives on rental gear. Then when I start liking it I will buy everything except suit, dive computer and tank. I will keep an eye on craigslist

[Grateful Diver]

Rental gear can be an expensive way to go if you're planning to do a lot of diving ... unless you can find someone who's willing to apply at least a portion of your rental fees toward purchase of new equipment.

Craigslist is a good option for those with a pretty good idea of what they want ... on the other hand, I've seen quite a few people end up with gear that is completely inappropriate for them, in which case, you end up putting it right back on there.

I just sent you a PM. Let's talk ... after I get a better idea of what your goals are, I can help you decide what to look for, and where to look. There's several options ... both new and used. Key thing is to purchase equipment you're gonna like in the long-term. Buying twice is expensive ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[LCF]

What Bob said . . . The shop where I got certified rents dry suits for $60 a day, and my first dry suit cost me $800. Therefore, after 13 dives, it was a wash on cost.

There is some very reasonable quality gear available these days at prices that won't break the bank. And some things can be safely purchased used, especially if you know the person from whom you are buying them. (I bought my first backplate and wing setup from Bob, and still use that rig today.) Or if you don't know the person, take someone along who knows more about gear than you do, and who can assess the condition of the equipment.

Buying regulators used is something with which to be careful, because you really SHOULD take them in for service before diving them, and that will add about $100 to the price. So used regulators are not always the bargain they might seem.

And, lastly, what shops carry and sell is not always what works best in Puget Sound. You might want to go to a couple of local dive sites (on a day when it is pleasant to be outside, anyway) and check out what people are actually using. Most of us are really happy to talk about our gear, especially after the dive. (Before the dive, we may be hurrying to make a current window, depending on the site.)

Have fun with this. Getting the right gear for you is a great way to improve the fun of diving!

[Dusty2]

Ok First, Bob is a very good mentor and one heck of a good instructor so make like a sponge and absorb everything he tells you. I would highly recommend him or one of the other club instructors over a shop class. You will get personal attention and allot better info and training than you will in a larger class and someone who will be willing to help you through your learner stage and assure you learn what you need to form a solid base for safety and fun. Also independent instructors are able to help you with gear choices without pushing what the shop sells. You will get advice on gear that is actually used by experienced northwest divers, gear that will last for the long haul not just get you through your learning process. Gear can be expensive but buying without a sound knowledge of what you really need is way more expensive.

Don't buy anything until you complete your cert unless your instructor tells you you need it for class. After you are certified only buy what you see other NW divers using. It will save lots in the long run.

I learned all this the hard way. I went with the cheap shop cattle call and also bought allot of stuff before hand thinking I had researched it thoughtfully and "Knew what I was doing" BIG mistake. Due to class size the instructor didn't have time for working with individuals and I ended up bailing after the pool sessions and doing it over with a different instructor and a smaller class. Not only that but there isn't a single piece of the original equipment I bought that I still use.

Learn from my mistakes. It's a lot less humbling and a hell of allot safer.

[Dashrynn]

The thing i love about instructors like bob is the lack of pressure pushed onto an individual to buy (x) brand when in reality (y) brand is just the same and cheaper and what i really need. Not being affiliated with a shop has that advantage (but im sure bob has his preferences like we all do)

I bought a high end primary reg (atomic) still use it but the crappy octo was thrown out the door on dive 40 (oceanic slimline 2)

I bought a bcd (loved it and will keep it to dive regular scuba dives) but found out later backplates have a great deal of characteristics us pnw divers need or want (scooter, can light, heavier initially etc etc)

Bought some paddle fins (cressi sub pro) and decided i disliked those, bought some stiff scubapro split fins (i can barely back kick with them, not fun though) for speed. Eventually bought some hollis f1 fins that i dive now (still love my scubapro fins)

bought a princeton tec led primary light....now my backup is just as bright as this light...(p.s im modding the princeton tec light too!). Bought a 10 watt hid light on the deco stop (halcyon proteus 3 and a badass light i love to dive with) and currently building a badass backup light (can light style) which will be my hand me out light and backup can light when i perfect it to my liking.

drysuit....bought on craigslist for 300....best buy ever...i have changed the seals out twice and the zipper still works fine (with maintenance of course) of and upgraded the dry gloves to si tech but i strongly recommend diving concepts (one dive and i was hooked)

[Peter Guy]

I would highly recommend him or one of the other club instructors over a shop class.

I'm just not sure how to take this or, quite frankly, the appropriate way to respond.

a. This thread is about gear for a newbie, not instruction.

b. I agree that Bob is a good instructor (I know, I've taken instruction from him AND we are both "affiliated" with the same instructor group).

c. In addition to teaching privately, I also am affiliated with an "LDS" (Local Dive Shop) that offers Open Water Classes.

When I'm teaching a class that has been organized by the LDS, do I tell students about the gear that is sold by the shop? Heck yes! One of the reasons I affiliated with the shop was because I believed it sells good gear at a "fair" price and provides very good service.

I tell all my students (whether from the LDS or private) that I'm an independent instructor and that IF they feel the need to buy gear, I'm ready, willing and able to give them advice on what gear is appropriate FOR THEM. And yes, that means I will recommend gear that is NOT sold by the LDS IF THAT IS WHAT I BELIEVE IS APPROPRIATE.

I am still diving some of the gear I first bought (regulator, computer and occasionally the BC) in addition to having spent thousands of dollars on more gear (sometimes new, sometimes used).

[Dusty2]

Sorry Peter if you took this personally. Most good shops that keep class sizes small and instructors like yourself and the others I have met through this forum really care about each individual and seeing that he/she gets the attention that they need to create a good understanding of the sport and the risks involved. Sadly not all shops are that way. Like you say it's the instructor that makes the class not where you sign up.

My intent was to inform the newbe that he should not buy any but the basic required gear until he completes his cert and only then with help from more experienced divers.

I had a very bad experience with one of those $99 dollar specials when I first started out.

[Grateful Diver]

When I'm teaching a class that has been organized by the LDS, do I tell students about the gear that is sold by the shop? Heck yes! One of the reasons I affiliated with the shop was because I believed it sells good gear at a "fair" price and provides very good service.

You happen to work for what I consider a well-run shop with a reputation for taking good care of its customers.

On the other hand, that shop also has some staff and an owner who are very ... VERY ... opinionated about certain types of gear and certain approaches to diving. We both know that ... as does your wife, who would not be diving either the equipment or style she currently does if she had listened to the shop owner and staff. I will point out that every piece of gear she purchased from that shop when she was initially certified was rather quickly replaced by something more appropriate to the manner and goals she developed after having been exposed to other options. Most people cannot afford to replace hundreds of dollars of gear so soon after purchasing it.

Fairness and disclosure, Peter ... most dive shops will steer you toward the gear they sell, and encourage you to dive in the manner that they teach. The more successful ones will steer you toward continuing education rather quickly ... often before you're ready for it. It's only good business.

In this respect, they do their customers a disservice by not fairly representing all the options available, and allowing the customer to make an educated decision. I understand the reasons ... which have everything to do with staying in business ... but to suggest that a dive shop will provide you with the same objective assessment of training and equipment options as someone who is not affiliated with a shop simply isn't reality. Everyone bases their perspective on self-interest ... and when your interest is to promote specific lines of gear, or a specific way to learn and conduct your dives, it reduces your motivation to be objective ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[Grateful Diver]

I had a very bad experience with one of those $99 dollar specials when I first started out.

It is generally true in all things that you get what you pay for.

The local chain store sells classes at their Diver's Fair for $129 ... and on any given week-end from August through about October you can see the results at your local training sites. You'll see classes with 15-20 students ... being ferried in and out by DM's and AI's to park on their knees in front of an instructor and do their "skills". It's all very well organized ... they've been doing it for years. And when they're done, you've mostly got divers who can perform any of the skills somewhat competently ... as long as they're kneeling down. They don't have very good diving skills, though. They churn up the bottom and make a mess of the dive site ... ruining it for everyone else ... because they didn't learn any better. They get lost and wander into ferry zones, or under fishing piers ... because all they ever learned about using a compass was "out and back" ... which isn't how anybody actually dives. They "know" at a bookish level that the proper ascent rate is 30 feet per minute ... and yet it doesn't occur to them that surfacing from a safety stop in a few seconds exceeds that rate by multiple factors ... because it wasn't emphasized to them in class that the last 15 feet of an ascent are the most important time to go slow.

New divers are expected to make mistakes ... they're expected to have skills that need a great deal of refinement ... but they're also expected to be able to plan and execute dives in local conditions without supervision. And in this respect, the cheapo classes fall short ... because the priority isn't in training you to dive independently in Puget Sound, it's to meet the minimum requirements specified by the certifying agency ... which are often inadequate for diving here. And then they use those inadequacies to sell you an AOW class straightaway ... five more dives with supervision ... and people buy them because their basic survival instincts tell them that they're not ready yet to dive unsupervised, even though they're supposed to be.

You get what you pay for. Those who charge more for their classes are the instructors who are factoring in the costs of more pool time, more class time, and perhaps more OW dives in order to better prepare you for diving in local conditions. There are no shortcuts. You cannot learn to dive in a week-end ... no matter how much "home study" you do. What you'll get out of those classes is how to survive (usually) while you struggle with the things you were supposed to have learned.

A good instructor won't teach those cheap classes ... their conscience won't allow it ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[Peter Guy]

To the OP -- Sorry about the little hi-jack that is going on!

But back to buying gear -- Bob is right that some shops and some instructors push too hard on getting the gear that is in the shop and available -- whether it is the right gear or not. Some times, in all honesty, I'm not at all sure the instructor knows any better because she's just telling you what she knows, which is what she learned when she started out...and the cycle continues.

Perhaps the best you can do is just to ask -- many people and (you hope) knowledgeable people -- WHAT they use and more importantly, WHY they use the gear they do.

If they know their stuff, they should be able to give you very specific reasons as to why they promote (and use) the gear they have. BTW, in my case, I use some of the gear I use because it was given to me (my doubles regs for example) even though they are NOT necessarily what I would recommend someone get. But I would definitely NOT tell someone to get "X" gear just because "my shop" sells it nor will I tell a student to get "Y" gear because it is the cheapest stuff out there. OTOH, I do, and have, told students to get "Z" gear because I believed it was the best value out there!

[Dusty2]

I had a very bad experience with one of those $99 dollar specials when I first started out.

It is generally true in all things that you get what you pay for.

The local chain store sells classes at their Diver's Fair for $129 ... and on any given week-end from August through about October you can see the results at your local training sites. You'll see classes with 15-20 students ... being ferried in and out by DM's and AI's to park on their knees in front of an instructor and do their "skills". It's all very well organized ... they've been doing it for years. And when they're done, you've mostly got divers who can perform any of the skills somewhat competently ... as long as they're kneeling down. They don't have very good diving skills, though. They churn up the bottom and make a mess of the dive site ... ruining it for everyone else ... because they didn't learn any better. They get lost and wander into ferry zones, or under fishing piers ... because all they ever learned about using a compass was "out and back" ... which isn't how anybody actually dives. They "know" at a bookish level that the proper ascent rate is 30 feet per minute ... and yet it doesn't occur to them that surfacing from a safety stop in a few seconds exceeds that rate by multiple factors ... because it wasn't emphasized to them in class that the last 15 feet of an ascent are the most important time to go slow.

New divers are expected to make mistakes ... they're expected to have skills that need a great deal of refinement ... but they're also expected to be able to plan and execute dives in local conditions without supervision. And in this respect, the cheapo classes fall short ... because the priority isn't in training you to dive independently in Puget Sound, it's to meet the minimum requirements specified by the certifying agency ... which are often inadequate for diving here. And then they use those inadequacies to sell you an AOW class straightaway ... five more dives with supervision ... and people buy them because their basic survival instincts tell them that they're not ready yet to dive unsupervised, even though they're supposed to be.

You get what you pay for. Those who charge more for their classes are the instructors who are factoring in the costs of more pool time, more class time, and perhaps more OW dives in order to better prepare you for diving in local conditions. There are no shortcuts. You cannot learn to dive in a week-end ... no matter how much "home study" you do. What you'll get out of those classes is how to survive (usually) while you struggle with the things you were supposed to have learned.

A good instructor won't teach those cheap classes ... their conscience won't allow it ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Thank you Bob for saying what I was trying to convey much more eloquently than I could have. The way you described it was exactly how they ran the class. I ended up having to take my class over with a different instructor because I knew I was not getting what I needed from that class or that instructor. The only good I got from the original class was that I knew I needed much more to be a safe diver and I wanted more than ever to dive.

[CaptnJack]

My $99 class gave me a card. I think just about every NAUI standard was broken in the course of "certifying" me (in 1993). My DM GF (now wife) actually "taught" me how to dive shortly thereafter.

[Acquatic]

Thanks Bob and everybody for the info and pointers.

I keep hearing .. different type of diving.. so what are different types of diving ? i assume its recreational diving .. technical diving.. wreck diving.. and so on and so forth correct ??

so is the gear different for diff style of diving ? I am basically looking at recreational diving.. i.e. not too deep but .. if i get hooked to it.. then i might go for advance as well but that is a pretty long shot.. at this point of time.

[kdupreez]

So.. hopefully this is not turning into a heated-debate thread that ends up being locked by mods or deleted..

I am an instructor thats affiliated with and teach most of my normal OW classes through the mentioned LDS that runs divers fair in july and sells dive classes for $129..

BUT - to be clear (as some people already eluded to).. thats the certification, equipment rental, pool, classroom and OpenWater dives ONLY and doesnt include any materials or personal gear (books, mask, fins, snorkel, etc.) This is pretty much a marketing/sales tactic to get feet through the door once a year that leads to lots of divers that eventally might need more gear.. Once your are signed up, you will need the related personal gear and books etc. for class.. so it usually ends up around $300 for a PADI OW certification that includes everything nose to toes.

btw - As I said, this is a huge loss leader and pure sales tool to get customers through the door.. a group of 8 students will bring in $800 at $99 divers fair price, but will actually cost the dive shop about close to $10,000 in pool rental, class room time, instructors fees, free gear rentals, liability insurance, etc. etc.

I also have to say here, that my affiliation with said LDS has been great. Yes, while OW classes are sometimes big (which I will get to later), the LDS bring all the new divers to the table for OW and its my job as the instructor from there on to retain divers for continued education and provide an excellent educational experience. And BTW 100% of the continued education fees beyond OW goes directly to the instructor.. PLUS this LDS allow instructors FREE pool use time and FREE classroom use time for private continued ed classes (even in the public rental pools the LDS pays for).. and off course there's the "staff discount" on gear etc. All of which is actually almost unheard of with other shops.. Bottom line, you get out of an LDS relationship what you put into that relationship.. and so far, with the little stumbling block here and there (nothing in life is perfect), mine has been nothing short of great!!

I value my relationship with them and ensure my classes are taught at the highest levels of safety whilst providing a fun and memorable experience.. Also, if you want to retain divers which results in continued education and good "word-of-mouth", its absolutely in your BEST interest as the Instructor, to make the Open Water class a good experience for the entire group..

Which brings me to the "big class sizes".. Although PADI allows you 8 people per class (up to 12 with assistants) and the LDS will sign up students with these big ass ratios, its WAAAY too big and not very condusive to a pleasant experience, plus with local conditions, I would not take anything more than max 6 people (and 2 staff) in an Open Water class on a good day!

So how do you fix this ?? ultimately its up to the instructor to decide how much fun or abysmal torture a class will be.. Any instructor that complains about big torturous classes with rushed pool time, fail OW days, missing students etc. etc. should realize its their own fault.. I personally break up classes and bring in other instructors to team-teach with from day 1 so the ratios are small and personal. (there is no rule against that)

There is also nothing that says extra pool or OW time is not allowed.. In fact, its encouraged and neither the LDS or Instructor charges for it. I have had students do extra pool sessions and extra OW sessions before I am satisfied they mastered the skills and will conduct themselves safely in OW dives.. I have also NOT issued certifications before if I feel that people are a danger to themselves or their would be buddies.. PADI also has an option of issuing a lesser cert that requires professional supervision.. I have used this tool in the past as well for someone I feel is not ready to dive locally, but would be OK in Australia on a 40fsw dive with a DM. When they come back we go for another checkout dive 1on1 and they get their full cert (no charge for the dive or upgrade)..

So, this all comes back to the individual instructor, NOT the LDS.. Also there are very clear schedules at the LDS on who teaches the relevant OW classes, so any OW student has the option to pick their instructor even at $99 level class.. Additionally, ALL feedback from students are evaluated and instructors are informed of any issues they should address in their classes.

As for sitting at the bottom in a row kicking up silt and holding on to students while they are performing a skill.. Its a vertical standard required by PADI to be physically in control of a situation.. As much as I would like to spend 6 full days learning grandma how to be perfectly bouyant while she removes and replaces a mask, it all goes to hell when you strap on a 7mm wetsuit, 24lbs of weight and drop in OW.. plus I guarantee you grandma will NEVER be enthused to go through 6 days of hell in order for her to go blow bubbles at 40sfw while on her world tour cruise ship vacation..

I guess my point is.. there is a place for both the grueling 6 full day intensive diver training programs and there is a place for the rest of the population that just want to blow bubbles once a year or maybe once every 2 years..

IF a student had a bad experience or any standards were violated, I highly encourage them to take it up with the dive shop AND file a complaint (QA Violation) with the certifying agency. If you feel classes are being conducted in an unsafe manner, go talk to the shop owner. he has a very open door policy!! Just dont go whine about your "crappy parking and bad viz day at cove 2 because of $99 classes"..

The same goes for ANYONE witnessing any such event. If you feel an instructor is not behaving appropriately or is violating standards or is putting a student at risk, its your obligation to report them - that's the only way to discourage bad behavior.
PADI and all other agencies are forced to investigate EVERY complaint they get and will put instructors on probation and even expell them for repeat offences.. But they dont know, what they dont know..

I stand behind my LDS and the agency I teach for and would welcome anyone to freely audit/attend any of my classes from OW through Tec Trimix! Anyone is also welcome to solicit me for information and feedback on my relationship with my LDS and get the honest truth from the horses mouth..

bottom line - not all instructors are created equal, not all divers are created equal and neither are all dive shops.. BUT - Scuba diving in the US is a "self regulating" industry and I really encourage you all to stop bashing agencies, instructors, dive shops and start doing something about it!! :angry:

ok.. now that I have vented my 2psi and hijacked the thread, let the debate commence

[BASSMAN]

This topic of which agency or style of diving, is best to be discussed with several dive buddies.
Try out different stuff ask lots of questions and pick out gear you can afford, but remember it's your life, you are buying for.
This is a great open forum to discuss gear, but when you start talking about agencies or styles of diving,it always seems to get heated.
I hope I didn't step on any toes here. And if I did?
Get over it already and lets go diving!
And that's all I have to say about that!

[Norris]

So.. hopefully this is not turning into a heated-debate thread that ends up being locked by mods or deleted..

I am an instructor thats affiliated with and teach most of my normal OW classes through the mentioned LDS that runs divers fair in july and sells dive classes for $129..

BUT - to be clear (as some people already eluded to).. thats the certification, equipment rental, pool, classroom and OpenWater dives ONLY and doesnt include any materials or personal gear (books, mask, fins, snorkel, etc.) This is pretty much a marketing/sales tactic to get feet through the door once a year that leads to lots of divers that eventally might need more gear.. Once your are signed up, you will need the related personal gear and books etc. for class.. so it usually ends up around $300 for a PADI OW certification that includes everything nose to toes.

btw - As I said, this is a huge loss leader and pure sales tool to get customers through the door.. a group of 8 students will bring in $800 at $99 divers fair price, but will actually cost the dive shop about close to $10,000 in pool rental, class room time, instructors fees, free gear rentals, liability insurance, etc. etc.

I also have to say here, that my affiliation with said LDS has been great. Yes, while OW classes are sometimes big (which I will get to later), the LDS bring all the new divers to the table for OW and its my job as the instructor from there on to retain divers for continued education and provide an excellent educational experience. And BTW 100% of the continued education fees beyond OW goes directly to the instructor.. PLUS this LDS allow instructors FREE pool use time and FREE classroom use time for private continued ed classes (even in the public rental pools the LDS pays for).. and off course there's the "staff discount" on gear etc. All of which is actually almost unheard of with other shops.. Bottom line, you get out of an LDS relationship what you put into that relationship.. and so far, with the little stumbling block here and there (nothing in life is perfect), mine has been nothing short of great!!

I value my relationship with them and ensure my classes are taught at the highest levels of safety whilst providing a fun and memorable experience.. Also, if you want to retain divers which results in continued education and good "word-of-mouth", its absolutely in your BEST interest as the Instructor, to make the Open Water class a good experience for the entire group..

Which brings me to the "big class sizes".. Although PADI allows you 8 people per class (up to 12 with assistants) and the LDS will sign up students with these big ass ratios, its WAAAY too big and not very condusive to a pleasant experience, plus with local conditions, I would not take anything more than max 6 people (and 2 staff) in an Open Water class on a good day!

So how do you fix this ?? ultimately its up to the instructor to decide how much fun or abysmal torture a class will be.. Any instructor that complains about big torturous classes with rushed pool time, fail OW days, missing students etc. etc. should realize its their own fault.. I personally break up classes and bring in other instructors to team-teach with from day 1 so the ratios are small and personal. (there is no rule against that)

There is also nothing that says extra pool or OW time is not allowed.. In fact, its encouraged and neither the LDS or Instructor charges for it. I have had students do extra pool sessions and extra OW sessions before I am satisfied they mastered the skills and will conduct themselves safely in OW dives.. I have also NOT issued certifications before if I feel that people are a danger to themselves or their would be buddies.. PADI also has an option of issuing a lesser cert that requires professional supervision.. I have used this tool in the past as well for someone I feel is not ready to dive locally, but would be OK in Australia on a 40fsw dive with a DM. When they come back we go for another checkout dive 1on1 and they get their full cert (no charge for the dive or upgrade)..

So, this all comes back to the individual instructor, NOT the LDS.. Also there are very clear schedules at the LDS on who teaches the relevant OW classes, so any OW student has the option to pick their instructor even at $99 level class.. Additionally, ALL feedback from students are evaluated and instructors are informed of any issues they should address in their classes.

As for sitting at the bottom in a row kicking up silt and holding on to students while they are performing a skill.. Its a vertical standard required by PADI to be physically in control of a situation.. As much as I would like to spend 6 full days learning grandma how to be perfectly bouyant while she removes and replaces a mask, it all goes to hell when you strap on a 7mm wetsuit, 24lbs of weight and drop in OW.. plus I guarantee you grandma will NEVER be enthused to go through 6 days of hell in order for her to go blow bubbles at 40sfw while on her world tour cruise ship vacation..

I guess my point is.. there is a place for both the grueling 6 full day intensive diver training programs and there is a place for the rest of the population that just want to blow bubbles once a year or maybe once every 2 years..

IF a student had a bad experience or any standards were violated, I highly encourage them to take it up with the dive shop AND file a complaint (QA Violation) with the certifying agency. If you feel classes are being conducted in an unsafe manner, go talk to the shop owner. he has a very open door policy!! Just dont go whine about your "crappy parking and bad viz day at cove 2 because of $99 classes"..

The same goes for ANYONE witnessing any such event. If you feel an instructor is not behaving appropriately or is violating standards or is putting a student at risk, its your obligation to report them - that's the only way to discourage bad behavior.
PADI and all other agencies are forced to investigate EVERY complaint they get and will put instructors on probation and even expell them for repeat offences.. But they dont know, what they dont know..

I stand behind my LDS and the agency I teach for and would welcome anyone to freely audit/attend any of my classes from OW through Tec Trimix! Anyone is also welcome to solicit me for information and feedback on my relationship with my LDS and get the honest truth from the horses mouth..

bottom line - not all instructors are created equal, not all divers are created equal and neither are all dive shops.. BUT - Scuba diving in the US is a "self regulating" industry and I really encourage you all to stop bashing agencies, instructors, dive shops and start doing something about it!! :angry:

ok.. now that I have vented my 2psi and hijacked the thread, let the debate commence

[Acquatic]

Well sorry for the heat here but I am not comparing the agencies here but just the gear .

I am assuming that I should acquire a good amount of info once I actually attend the class and that would be a good time to compare ) but still pls keep the info coming and thanks.

[Grateful Diver]

I don't, personally, see any bashing going on in this thread. Nor do I think a discussion about different diving styles and gear choices should be a topic for contention.

Why shouldn't we be able to discuss those things without controversy or hurt toes?

There are advantages and disadvantages to every choice you can make in scuba diving. Discussing them from the perspective of people who have made different choices seems to me a productive use of a discussion board ... assuming that everyone can act like an adult and not take someone else's comments personally.

Most of us know each other well enough that shouldn't be a problem ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[Nwbrewer]

Well sorry for the heat here but I am not comparing the agencies here but just the gear .

I am assuming that I should acquire a good amount of info once I actually attend the class and that would be a good time to compare ) but still pls keep the info coming and thanks.

Acquatic,

As far as gear goes, get through your OW, then rent/borrow some different setups and see what works for you. Lots of different gear out there, some of us have spare gear we're willing to loan out. Get certified and talk with NWGratefulDiver as he offered. I'm in the north end and I have some gear you can try too.

Jake

[spatman]

not all instructors are created equal, not all divers are created equal and neither are all dive shops.. BUT - Scuba diving in the US is a "self regulating" industry and I really encourage you all to stop bashing agencies, instructors, dive shops and start doing something about it!!

koos, if there were any agency bashing going on, we'd shut down this thread since we have zero tolerance for it. so far, it has been a discussion about price vs training practice, and as long as it stays that way and people remain civil, there is nothing wrong with this topic.

[LCF]

Acquatic, there are tons of different "ways of diving". Not only open water, technical and cave; but warm water and cold water, solo and team . . . Each environment, or each choice of style, may mandate a different equipment configuration. And a person doesn't have to choose a style and stick with it, either; for example, sometimes Bob is a team diver, and sometimes he is a solo diver, and he carries different equipment for different dives.

Again, my biggest advice is to go spend some time hanging out at some of the popular dive sites. Go to Cove 2 and talk to some divers. Go to Edmonds. Go to Redondo on a weekend. Walk around and look at what's sitting in the backs of trucks and cars. Ask questions. Unless we're involved in a class, or hurrying to make a current window (which isn't really relevant at any of the listed sites, at least on most days) we love to talk about diving and our equipment. Ask people WHY they have what they have, and whether they've had other gear before, and whether they've ever tried anything else. (You'll find some people bought what they dive when they got certified, and haven't ever tried anything else; other people may have evolved through several configurations, to settle on what works for them.) If you spend a little time doing this, you'll get exposed to more brands, more types, and more combinations of equipment than are carried in any single dive shop, and you may find some themes emerging as to what people have found works for Puget Sound diving. And you may come up with some specific questions that you can bring back to the board and ask, and get a whole new set of opinions!

The biggest piece of advice is not to rush into buying ANYTHING. You may well have to buy your personal gear for the class -- don't shell out for the most expensive gear in the shop, because you may well find out later that you like something else better. A simple set of fins, a mask that fits, and a simple snorkel will get you certified, and the money you save will go toward the other equipment that you will later want to buy. It's a lot less painful to buy a $40 set of fins, knowing you will likely replace them, than it is to buy a $200 set of fins, and discover a couple of months later that you need to replace THEM!

[CaptnJack]

So.. hopefully this is not turning into a heated-debate thread that ends up being locked by mods or deleted..

I am an instructor thats affiliated with and teach most of my normal OW classes through the mentioned LDS that runs divers fair in july and sells dive classes for $129..

BUT - to be clear (as some people already eluded to).. thats the certification, equipment rental, pool, classroom and OpenWater dives ONLY and doesnt include any materials or personal gear (books, mask, fins, snorkel, etc.) This is pretty much a marketing/sales tactic to get feet through the door once a year that leads to lots of divers that eventally might need more gear.. Once your are signed up, you will need the related personal gear and books etc. for class.. so it usually ends up around $300 for a PADI OW certification that includes everything nose to toes.

btw - As I said, this is a huge loss leader and pure sales tool to get customers through the door.. a group of 8 students will bring in $800 at $99 divers fair price, but will actually cost the dive shop about close to $10,000 in pool rental, class room time, instructors fees, free gear rentals, liability insurance, etc. etc.

I also have to say here, that my affiliation with said LDS has been great. Yes, while OW classes are sometimes big (which I will get to later), the LDS bring all the new divers to the table for OW and its my job as the instructor from there on to retain divers for continued education and provide an excellent educational experience. And BTW 100% of the continued education fees beyond OW goes directly to the instructor.. PLUS this LDS allow instructors FREE pool use time and FREE classroom use time for private continued ed classes (even in the public rental pools the LDS pays for).. and off course there's the "staff discount" on gear etc. All of which is actually almost unheard of with other shops.. Bottom line, you get out of an LDS relationship what you put into that relationship.. and so far, with the little stumbling block here and there (nothing in life is perfect), mine has been nothing short of great!!

I value my relationship with them and ensure my classes are taught at the highest levels of safety whilst providing a fun and memorable experience.. Also, if you want to retain divers which results in continued education and good "word-of-mouth", its absolutely in your BEST interest as the Instructor, to make the Open Water class a good experience for the entire group..

Which brings me to the "big class sizes".. Although PADI allows you 8 people per class (up to 12 with assistants) and the LDS will sign up students with these big ass ratios, its WAAAY too big and not very condusive to a pleasant experience, plus with local conditions, I would not take anything more than max 6 people (and 2 staff) in an Open Water class on a good day!

So how do you fix this ?? ultimately its up to the instructor to decide how much fun or abysmal torture a class will be.. Any instructor that complains about big torturous classes with rushed pool time, fail OW days, missing students etc. etc. should realize its their own fault.. I personally break up classes and bring in other instructors to team-teach with from day 1 so the ratios are small and personal. (there is no rule against that)

There is also nothing that says extra pool or OW time is not allowed.. In fact, its encouraged and neither the LDS or Instructor charges for it. I have had students do extra pool sessions and extra OW sessions before I am satisfied they mastered the skills and will conduct themselves safely in OW dives.. I have also NOT issued certifications before if I feel that people are a danger to themselves or their would be buddies.. PADI also has an option of issuing a lesser cert that requires professional supervision.. I have used this tool in the past as well for someone I feel is not ready to dive locally, but would be OK in Australia on a 40fsw dive with a DM. When they come back we go for another checkout dive 1on1 and they get their full cert (no charge for the dive or upgrade)..

So, this all comes back to the individual instructor, NOT the LDS.. Also there are very clear schedules at the LDS on who teaches the relevant OW classes, so any OW student has the option to pick their instructor even at $99 level class.. Additionally, ALL feedback from students are evaluated and instructors are informed of any issues they should address in their classes.

As for sitting at the bottom in a row kicking up silt and holding on to students while they are performing a skill.. Its a vertical standard required by PADI to be physically in control of a situation.. As much as I would like to spend 6 full days learning grandma how to be perfectly bouyant while she removes and replaces a mask, it all goes to hell when you strap on a 7mm wetsuit, 24lbs of weight and drop in OW.. plus I guarantee you grandma will NEVER be enthused to go through 6 days of hell in order for her to go blow bubbles at 40sfw while on her world tour cruise ship vacation..

I guess my point is.. there is a place for both the grueling 6 full day intensive diver training programs and there is a place for the rest of the population that just want to blow bubbles once a year or maybe once every 2 years..

IF a student had a bad experience or any standards were violated, I highly encourage them to take it up with the dive shop AND file a complaint (QA Violation) with the certifying agency. If you feel classes are being conducted in an unsafe manner, go talk to the shop owner. he has a very open door policy!! Just dont go whine about your "crappy parking and bad viz day at cove 2 because of $99 classes"..

The same goes for ANYONE witnessing any such event. If you feel an instructor is not behaving appropriately or is violating standards or is putting a student at risk, its your obligation to report them - that's the only way to discourage bad behavior.
PADI and all other agencies are forced to investigate EVERY complaint they get and will put instructors on probation and even expell them for repeat offences.. But they dont know, what they dont know..

I stand behind my LDS and the agency I teach for and would welcome anyone to freely audit/attend any of my classes from OW through Tec Trimix! Anyone is also welcome to solicit me for information and feedback on my relationship with my LDS and get the honest truth from the horses mouth..

bottom line - not all instructors are created equal, not all divers are created equal and neither are all dive shops.. BUT - Scuba diving in the US is a "self regulating" industry and I really encourage you all to stop bashing agencies, instructors, dive shops and start doing something about it!! :angry:

ok.. now that I have vented my 2psi and hijacked the thread, let the debate commence

Too bad you can't squeeze in a gas management lecture for that price. A couple of instructors here teach this for free...

[Dusty2]

Good post LCF.

Also I might add don't hang around the classes. Look for the divers that have their own equipment. A good way to tell is if they are in a wetsuit chances are they are relatively new divers. Few people dive wet for very long in the northwest.

Which is in a way part of the answer to your question about different ways of diving. There are many different styles that are acceptable and advocates for each. The basic answer to the recreational dive level is cold or warm. The dive gear you see in the puget sound and other cold water destinations will be quite different from what you would see in warmer climes. It tends to be heaver and more robust since the conditions demand it. The advantage to learning up here is if you learn here you will be able to dive almost anywhere. In the tropics you dive almost no exposure gear, the water is clear so most don't get the compass training they should and just about any reg setup will suffice.

Aside from the temp difference up here the viz is usually on the low end so compass training is very important as are good buddy skills. Get more than a few feet from your buddy and you will loose contact and if you don't work with your compass you will have no idea where you are. Regs should be cold tolerant. The risk of freeze up is real in cold waters and cold outdoor temps. There are many other things you will learn as you go and chances are you may go in a different direction then you though after you gain more knowledge and experience and become more aware of the options.

The best info is don't buy anything that you don't need to get you through class. Concentrate on learning what the class offers first then start to form an idea of where you want to go after you have your card in hand and a few dives under your belt. Best approach is to go in with a completely open mind and just listen and absorb everything the instructor gives you.