NWUE Buddy Group

[Sockmonkey]

Kate,

I haven't taken the GUE fundamentals yet... I know little to nothing about team oriented diving... but of late I tend to dive with DIR or tech diver types.

I'm a year into having DIR tech diving compliant gear. Maybe 30 dives in my singles rig? While I was certified in 1992, for intents and purposes I'm more or less as new to DIR/tech as you might be. Not only new to DIR but new to Seattle.

How did you get involved with DIR diving?

I went diving with an old friend in Monterey a few years back. He introduced me to the notion of DIR and unified team diving. I thought at the time he was a crackpot as he was showing me how he was going to donate his regular in case I ran out of gas. Total looneybird! Of course when we got in the water he was perfectly horizontal, relaxed and in control of everything. He kept needling me about how many things underwater I missed because I was too busy filling and dumping my BC or struggling keep still.

What made you decide to pursue that philosophy?

Dive charter boats made me start investigating DIR diving. When I go on vacation I am usually on a dive boat without a buddy. I was paired up with all manner of other divers. I became exhausted by the scene on these boats. It became difficult to have fun for a variety of reasons. Unsafe dive buddies, unreliable and sketchy dive gear failing, instructors and classes failing about, mis-information, hubris and collective ignorance all scaring the living crap out of me. Countless times where my fun was ruined because someone else was having a hard time. Even the "advanced" divers I was often paired up with now and then were utterly calamitous. My hope is that getting more involved with DIR diving I'll be able to go anywhere in the world and find other people with the same exact dive methodology.

What really clicked with me was learning that overarching goal of the DIR philosophy was to increase the amount of fun you had diving. Fun? No PADI course assured me that I was supposed to have fun. Man oh man, I want to dive with people who make fun a priority. (thanks to Ed Hayes for making this clear recently)

You'll probably see me in doubles sometime soon but I'm not sure I'm going to go the full-on tech route. I often just enjoy floating around within the recreational limits happy to be under the water. The other misconception I had to get over was the fact that you don't need to do extreme diving to get into DIR diving.

I also tend to gravitate to community type hobbies. I was really into the open source software scene during the dot com boom.... I used to own a particular type of motorcycle because of the support community and owners groups that allowed me to learn from others.

What reaction do you get from the rest of the dive community?

I can't speak as a real DIR or tech diver but I can say that when you're on a dive boat with a long hose and regulator around your neck you get asked all kinds of annoying questions. Usually you can tell the people who are actually interested vs. the hecklers. It used to make me self conscious and I would fret about being ostracized... but being hungup about not being picked for the kickball team is better left for the shrink's office than a dive boat. I got over it. However it seems that the PNW has more divers in backplates/wings and necklaces than anywhere I've run into so far.

You don't really bite new divers, do you?

I did get a toothache underwater once and bit through mouthpiece from the pain. Increased PSI is a great way to find out you need a root canal.

Every single DIR person I've talked to or dove with has welcomed me warmly regardless of my skill level or type of gear.

Hope this newbie point of view helps.

-Eric

[Tangfish]

So, when and where is this dive?

And yes, I understand the reluctance to dive with me b/c the CCR is a very complex and different setup. There aren't many different things you can do to rescue someone experiencing the 3 Hs on a CCR, but there is one very simple thing you'd do (in my case) - open loop diluent flush.

Nailer, are you down to buddy up and we'll be a pair of CCRs along for the ride? We'll be our own little self-contained buddy unit and won't crimp anyone else's style. I like diving with other folks, even if they're not my primary buddy!

[Romer Treece]

At this point, I humbly request that CCR divers bring/arrange another CCR diver to dive with. Currently we are unable to comfortably supply you with a 'like gear' dive buddy, and I do not know of anyone in our 'leadership' group who is savvy enough with CCR to do pre-dive checks and trouble shoot the gear. You can work on the 'arranging' on the list or via your own lines of communication.

I am hoping that CCR divers who are considering attending are doing so because they want to learn more about a style of diving and meet some new peeps/put real names-faces to Avatars, and not just to see 'our' reaction.

I apologize that we cannot automatically offer you a buddy option.

Happy diving!

Laura

That will all change when you get your Meg. How long has it been since you ordered it?

[ljjames]

I opted to order up a new scooter instead!!!!! Baby's got a new set of blades!!!!!

[dsteding]

So, when and where is this dive?

And yes, I understand the reluctance to dive with me b/c the CCR is a very complex and different setup. There aren't many different things you can do to rescue someone experiencing the 3 Hs on a CCR, but there is one very simple thing you'd do (in my case) - open loop diluent flush.

Nailer, are you down to buddy up and we'll be a pair of CCRs along for the ride? We'll be our own little self-contained buddy unit and won't crimp anyone else's style. I like diving with other folks, even if they're not my primary buddy!

Awesome Calvin, I'm glad you and Josh are trying to make these things.

If you go to our website in about two minutes, you'll see it updated with a buddy list page, with links to the yahoo group and to the calendar, where they'll be labeled as "tweak" dives. Makes me think of a bunch of divers on meth, but that is what everyone was calling them.

As for the others that have asked how you got into DIR diving, I got into it through dives like these-I went for a dive with Bob Bailey (not DIR by his own description, but GUE trained at one point and a damn fine diver) and then with Lynne (pretty damn DIR by her own description). After my flailing self got out of the water, I said "I want to learn how to dive like that." And, that is what I've been doing over the years.

-Doug

Also, I'm stoked to see other experienced divers from our community signing up and coming out, hopefully this can also be a bit of an introduction for you all to NWUE, and a chance for us to get in the water together.

[Romer Treece]

I opted to order up a new scooter instead!!!!! Baby's got a new set of blades!!!!!

That's a better pose than the ones with the Mini G.

Are you still getting a Meg? NWUE could use a CCR diver in the group.

[ljjames]

and that's not my new scooter.... that's just a loaner Mine will be MUCH cooler!!

[Joshua Smith]

Yeah, if we do show up and dive with y'all, I could show anyone who's interested CCR rescue/ gas donation protocols in, like, 3 minutes- it's pretty simple.

[dsteding]

Yeah, if we do show up and dive with y'all, I could show anyone who's interested CCR rescue/ gas donation protocols in, like, 3 minutes- it's pretty simple.

Mash on the inflator, wave bye-bye?

(kidding everyone, I'm kidding).

[Joshua Smith]

Yeah, if we do show up and dive with y'all, I could show anyone who's interested CCR rescue/ gas donation protocols in, like, 3 minutes- it's pretty simple.

Mash on the inflator, wave bye-bye?

(kidding everyone, I'm kidding).

It would take longer than 3 minutes to teach you how to do that, and you know it, Steding.

[dsteding]

Yeah, if we do show up and dive with y'all, I could show anyone who's interested CCR rescue/ gas donation protocols in, like, 3 minutes- it's pretty simple.

Mash on the inflator, wave bye-bye?

(kidding everyone, I'm kidding).

It would take longer than 3 minutes to teach you how to do that, and you know it, Steding.

I'm going to give you a 1 out of 10 for that response. Weak Josh, weak.

But, I'm done, no need to hijack this thread further, and I'll take the blame for starting this. It is Friday.

[Joshua Smith]

Yeah, if we do show up and dive with y'all, I could show anyone who's interested CCR rescue/ gas donation protocols in, like, 3 minutes- it's pretty simple.

Mash on the inflator, wave bye-bye?

(kidding everyone, I'm kidding).

It would take longer than 3 minutes to teach you how to do that, and you know it, Steding.

I'm going to give you a 1 out of 10 for that response. Weak Josh, weak.

But, I'm done, no need to hijack this thread further, and I'll take the blame for starting this. It is Friday.

I disagree. I didn't get to rate your original jab on a 1-10 scale, I merely responded in kind. I will now rate your "inflator button/ wave bye bye" comment: It is a .073. Which is weaker than my "1". But I had the decency not to point it out, in public, even. Not wanting to dazzle you with stunning turns of phrase, I held back, and took myself down to your level. I should have known better. "When you lay down with dogs" and all that.


Yeah, it's Friday.

[lamont]

I got into DIR between my OW certification course and post-OW dive #1.

It made sense to me. Most of the principles, if you generalize them, apply to what I do for work (keeping servers running) -- so I've had lots of experience with the underlying principles when the cost of failure is just financial rather than life and death. Having all your servers configured exactly the same so that operational people who learn how to diagnose and fix a problem on one server can immediate diagnose and fix that same problem on all the servers in the company will result in better uptime. Learned that one through trial and error, so GUEs focus on standardized gear configuration seemed good. I'm also used to picking up tools that someone else built and using them and not reinventing the wheel -- I don't need to write my own SSL crypto libraries to prove that I'm my own individual, and I don't lose my sense of individuality by diving with a system that was thought up by other people. I also just found that several of the things made intuitive sense (e.g. I never liked consoles). Biggest barrier I had to adopting GUE/DIR was getting around the idea that in an OOA situation it was a good idea to spit out your own reg and donate it. That took months of thinking about it, and probably a year of practicing it.

And the reason why I've stuck with it is that it just works for what I do with diving. I dive and it just works. That actually means that I can focus on the diving, and not focus on the system (unlike on the internet where all the focus is on the DIR system and nothing on the DIR diving). DIR divers get a ton of crap on the internet for doing a lot of skills diving when they start out learning, but it pays off when you go down to mexico and do 22 dives in 7 days and not a single one of them are skillls dives... =)

[Joshua Smith]

Biggest barrier I had to adopting GUE/DIR was getting around the idea that in an OOA situation it was a good idea to spit out your own reg and donate it. That took months of thinking about it, and probably a year of practicing it.

I will probably regret writing this, and I apologize up front to whoever I might offend, but:

That is not just a GUE concept. Any and all open circuit tech training will teach the same skill, with the same equipment, the same way. (with the possible exception of PADI's DSAT, but nobody seems to know what they do,anyway.....)

No offense to GUE, DIR, or UTD intended. Seriously. I just feel that it's important to let newer divers know that stuff like the longhose, associated drills with said hose, Backplate and wing w/ continuous webbing, and other elements of the configuration are not proprietary.

[LCF]

Oh, no offense taken! I don't think Lamont was trying to say that donating the primary is unique to DIR. It's just different from what's generally taught in regular OW classes (unless you're learning with an Air2 type of thing). It's virtually universal in OC tech, although there are still some people out there who stuff the long hose.

Almost nothing about DIR is unique; it's putting it together the way they do into a holistic system that's the different part about it.

[BASSMAN]

Me, PADI Rescue diver trained, and my personal experience in diving with DIR/GUE divers has been by far, some of the most educational dives I've known. Just a few tips goes a long way. If I could afford it ,I would seriously consider taking the GUE course. I have been told by a few other divers{Not DIR} that DIR means, if your not doing it like us, You're Doing It Wrong! And as far as I've seen, that is not the attitude I've personally experienced. I would like to get more opportunities to dive with DIR/GUE/Unified Team Divers/NWUE ect... I just hope some of them are open to dive on Thursdays!"You all must have known that statement was coming" I dive with the 7 foot long hose and a neclace just because I've experienced sharing air with some one else who dives that style. Then later, during my Rescue course, I had to do the whole out of air drill with my shorter Octo, and it was not very easy. {Compared to the Long hose}
I can't access the Yahoo part of the NWUE from work. ](*,)
I'm glad there are DIR/GUE/Unified Team Divers/NWUE out there to help make recreational diving safer too! And thanks for sharing your skills

[LCF]

Bassman, I frequently have weekday time to dive (Thursdays and other weekdays).

[BASSMAN]

Bassman, I frequently have weekday time to dive (Thursdays and other weekdays).

Great! I hope to see you at Three Tree N. or Redondo to practice some skills. One skill I would like to practice is...Shooting a SMB at 15 or 20 feet. I have a Large XS Scuba SMB {With the relief Valve} And I have a Finger Spool. I tried it once and for lack of a better word...it was a poor attempt to get it inflated to be able to stand up on the surface.

[Pez7378]

This is a very interesting discussion. I have not taken any GUE classes. I believe in a minimalistic approach so I use a hogarthian configuration, BP/W, Everything is black (I like black!), and I've determined that much of what I use for gear is accepted in the DIR community.(Except my computer ). I've adopted a lot of "standardized" techniques into my diving because I think that it makes sense. I've considered specific GUE training and basically realized that it is not necessary for the type of diving I do. In reality, I believe that one does not need to be GUE trained to be "DIR" although I believe it was those folks that coined the term. GUE and the folks in that organization did not invent these equipment configurations. In the 10 years or so that they have been around, they may have improved upon some basic principles, started a world wide training agency, conducted a "few" cave explorations, founded an equipment company, scooter company, and who knows what else but they did not invent diving, or the equipment or the ability to survive while breathing compressed gas underwater. There are times however when listening and participating in various conversations, I realize that even though I walk like a duck, and sound like a duck..................I am in fact Not a duck.

I think it's a good idea for NWUE and those of you who are GUE trained and strictly DIR to welcome folks to come and dive with you. I might even come out some time and meet some new people, and get a dive in during the week!

[dsteding]

I believe that one does not need to be GUE trained to be "DIR" although I believe it was those folks that coined the term. GUE and the folks in that organization did not invent these equipment configurations. In the 10 years or so that they have been around, they may have improved upon some basic principles, started a world wide training agency, conducted a "few" cave explorations, founded an equipment company, scooter company, and who knows what else but they did not invent diving, or the equipment or the ability to survive while breathing compressed gas underwater.

I don't think GUE would claim that they invented diving or the equipment configuration, their literature recognizes that the equipment configuration is a "Hogarthian" configuration (named after the guy that thought it out). Responding to Josh's points, I don't think GUE would disagree with you that others use the longhose configuration.

But, DIR is more than a gear configuration, it incorporates some additional principles regarding team functions and analysis of risk. Longer discussion, but worth pointing out.

I also don't think GUE has a monopoly on DIR anymore. My tech training, for instance, is with NAUI, but is most certainly from someone that knows what is what when it comes to this style of diving. DIR as a term is even losing its appeal, for the reasons mentioned above. Seems like Unified Team Diving is slowly taking its place, but regardless of what you call it, it is a style of diving that makes sense to me.

[Pez7378]

they may have improved upon some basic principles........ they did not invent the equipment, or the ability to survive while breathing compressed gas underwater.

But, DIR is more than a gear configuration, it incorporates some additional principles regarding team functions and analysis of risk.

I think we see it similarly. I didn't mean to imply that GUE claimed these as their own, and even the team concept isn't new. Other agencies call it buddy skills. Whatever you call it, whoever is teaching it, it IS like you said, a style of diving that makes sense.

[lamont]

Biggest barrier I had to adopting GUE/DIR was getting around the idea that in an OOA situation it was a good idea to spit out your own reg and donate it. That took months of thinking about it, and probably a year of practicing it.

I will probably regret writing this, and I apologize up front to whoever I might offend, but:

That is not just a GUE concept.

However, if you are transitioning from PADI OW approach to diving to a GUE/DIR approach to diving -- like I was -- then donation of the long hose can be a huge stumbling block.

The whole argument about GUE not really doing anything novel is very old. Its very obvious that GUE lifted just about everything it teaches from somewhere else (often not directly scuba-related, such as some of the mantras the instructors like "slow is smooth and smooth is fast" and "practice makes permanent, perfect practice makes perfect", etc).

[lamont]

In reality, I believe that one does not need to be GUE trained to be "DIR" although I believe it was those folks that coined the term.

Depends what you mean. If you're talking about the GI3 chest-beating you-are-going-to-die-if-you-dont definition of "DIR" then you don't really need to be GUE-trained to dive DIR (aka safely).

However, if you're talking about fitting together as a team with other GUE trained divers, then there's definitely a lot more to it than equipment and I'd argue that you essentially must be GUE trained to fit in with a GUE team if you're doing more advanced diving. At the recreational level it doesn't really matter. At the cave2 or tech2 levels procedure can matter a lot, you really want everyone to have the same reactions to problems, and don't want to wind up having extensive conversations about procedure underwater. And a lot of it isn't that one way of doing things is 'right' or 'wrong', its just that its picked as the way to do thing if you're trained in GUE, so when something happens everyone just starts responding the same way. That has huge benefits in an environment where communication is sometimes difficult.

[ljjames]

Actually it is NOT unique to DIR by any means. Think back to the AIR 2. I believe NASDS was teaching 'donate the primary' (or at least allowed their instructors to train that way) for quite some time. I don't know about pre-1990's but i know for sure in the the early 90's.

Oh, no offense taken! I don't think Lamont was trying to say that donating the primary is unique to DIR. It's just different from what's generally taught in regular OW classes (unless you're learning with an Air2 type of thing). It's virtually universal in OC tech, although there are still some people out there who stuff the long hose.

Almost nothing about DIR is unique; it's putting it together the way they do into a holistic system that's the different part about it.

[rjw]

I opted to order up a new scooter instead!!!!! Baby's got a new set of blades!!!!!

Do you still have that Mini G ? Nailer really needs a scooter. I'm sure he could dig up $15 or 20 to take that POS off your hands. LOL Just kidding. Don't take any less than $50 from that cheap SOB.