More controversy over NAUI's photo contest

[nwscubamom]

There's been a lot of discussion lately on NAUI's photo competition, and the terms under which you submit your photos. Basically, they want full, EXCLUSIVE use (normally it's non-exclusive use) of ANY photo that's entered into the contest, whether you win or not. Free of charge. Forever.

Ouch.

http://www.undercurrent.org/UCnow/dive_ ... 01008.html

- Janna

[SeattleYates]

Yep, it's an unbelievable abuse of the many unsuspecting photographers who enter their contest assuming that "Hey, it's NAUI - what a great organization - what could be wrong?" And then, whether they win or not, they've lost total rights to their own photographs!
(Post edited to remove idiotic rant and gross over-generalization.)

[spatman]

But now, if anyone asked, I'd say, "Whatever you do, DON'T have anything to do with NAUI! They're bald-faced thieves who act like there's not even anything wrong with what they're doing!" :angry:

the deal may suck, but they're not thieves. they state plainly what their intentions are with the photo usage, and it's up to you to decide whether or not to enter the competition.

[Grateful Diver]

Yanno Bruce ... as a NAUI instructor, I find your remarks incredibly offensive.

I'm part of that organization ... as are many people on this website. And I hardly see myself or anyone else associated with NAUI as thieves.

And what, exactly, does a photo contest have to do with the quality of education a NAUI instructor has to offer someone?

To my concern, your credibility just dropped to zero ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[Nwbrewer]

Man, I think this thread needs a cooling off.

Bruce, I'm with Spatty, I think the rules they have for their photo contest are unnecessarily restrictive, and somewhat unfair but the simple answer is to not submit photo's to that contest. As long as someone buys off on those rules when entering the contest I hardly see how it rises to the level of thievery.

I wouldn't say you've lost credibility, but I would urge you to calm down a little before making statements about the entire agency based on some rules written by the marketing branch concerning a photo contest. I know ownership is a very sensitive subject for those who make their art through the lens, but I really fail to see what any of this has to do with the quality of the educational curriculum.

Jake

[CaptnJack]

but I really fail to see what any of this has to do with the quality of the educational curriculum.

Which really remains "all about the instructor" - at least way moreso than the card issuing agency.

[SeattleYates]

Points well taken, and I sincerely apologize for over-generalizing what I consider questionable policies of those in charge of the photo contest in a way that impuned the reputations of all the good people associated with the organization.
That's the problem with getting worked up about something - you sometimes impulsively write and hit "Enter" before thinking of the broader implications of your statements. I am truly ashamed for having done so, and promise to be far more careful in the future...and maybe even earn (back?) Bob's respect.

I do think those of you associated with NAUI should (if you agree that the policy of taking ALL rights to someone's photos is excessive) give that feedback to the organization. I know they have not scored any points with the underwater photographic community with this policy.

[Sounder]

I'm also a NAUI-Professional/Member. It's not hidden, it's not a secret... if you submit your images, they may use them. If you want to enter the competition, you have to play by their rules. If you don't like it, set up your own competition. Had it been a secret, or done without notification to the participants, I'd be fervently opposed to it and vocal about my opinion... but the NAUI marketing department laid it out there plain and simple. I'm not the least bit ashamed of them, as a NAUI Pro nor as as someone who makes money doing marketing in the dive industry.

[nwscubamom]

I think that what's causing the hubbub, if I am understanding this right, is that this is the FIRST time any organization has attempted this in a contest - so until the objections were made loud and clear by some of the usual photographers that enter contests, nobody really stopped to read the rules, assuming it was the same old same old submission agreement. (but I could be wrong on this - this is just my interpretation having read the scuttle on various boards and email lists)

As far as skimming through a user agreement and not paying complete attention to the wording - I've been guilty of this - it is typical for non-profits and for-profit groups to run contests to get photos to use in their website and promotional and presentation materials - what's unusual is the complete forfeiting of all rights to your own photos for this use. NORMALLY you still get use of your own photos, and I would have made that assumption on this contest too.

- Janna

[ktb]

The rules do seem ridiculously overbearing. Any photo entered--even those that don't win--couldn't be entered in other contests or posted on your own webpages (like Facebook)? Wow. No thanks.

And even though it doesn't change my opinion about NAUI as a dive organization, it doesn't make them look good, either. And that's what the marketing department is supposed to be doing.

[Nwbrewer]

And even though it doesn't change my opinion about NAUI as a dive organization, it doesn't make them look good, either. And that's what the marketing department is supposed to be doing.

In that respect I think Bruce is right on, if you think this policy is overbearing and disagree with it, let the marketing department know. I don't think you have to be a NAUI card holder to do that, the fact that you are a diver makes you a potential customer.

Start threads on SB and Wetpixel etc... if they aren't already there, then point the Customer Relations people to the threads so that they can see the public backlash to their decision. As you say, their job is to project a positive image of the agency, and if this rule is having the opposite effect, they may reverse it, especially since their stated reason for the rule is that they want to protect their image.

Jake

[CaptnJack]

since their stated reason for the rule is that they want to protect their image.

who's image? :angry:

[Nwbrewer]

since their stated reason for the rule is that they want to protect their image.

who's image? :angry:

From the linked article - (emphasis mine)

Why NAUI Wants All Rights

Boom and a few other professional photographers pressed Jed Livingston, NAUI’s marketing director, for details. Boom didn’t get an answer directly but he did pass on to us Livingston’s reply to a letter from Jason Heller, who runs DivePhotoGuide.com. Heller asked Livingston whether NAUI would be granting a license to use the photo. Livingston’s reply: “No, we are seeking ownership rights. Submitting a photo to the contest for consideration transfers ownership, and the originator is not able to resell or provide the image to another entity without NAUI’s written permission.

Heller considers these “abusive and overreaching usage rights.” Livingston replied, “You are entitled to your opinion, however, we are collecting images to exclusively use in future NAUI products and promotions, and we make clear that by submitting a photo you relinquish ownership and any right to future compensation.” Livingston wrote that the rules ensure that “any image we choose to associate with our brand, winner or not, will not circulate on the Internet, be used in a manner with which we might disagree, or be sold to the highest bidder once the exposure we provide adds value to the image.”

[CaptnJack]

Actually I was just commenting on the fact that "their image" has multiple meanings

Calling this whole dealio a "contest" is really the misnomer IMHO. Its more like "send us your images free for our exclusive use and we'll toss you some accolades".

[Tom Nic]

I'm not the least bit ashamed of them, as a NAUI Pro nor as as someone who makes money doing marketing in the dive industry.

Doug - you are not a photographer, and Naui's instruction as related to Scuba is NOT what is at issue here, so you have no reason to be "ashamed" of them. This is NOT "marketing", this is taking the rights to a picture away from the one who took it - simply for entering the contest - not even for winning it. From everything I've heard NAUI is a great scuba teaching organization - what's being questioned is the rules of this contest. Bruce's over reaction (and subsequent retraction - thanks Bruce) non-withstanding, it's the contest that folks are objecting to, not NAUI as an organization.

what's unusual is the complete forfeiting of all rights to your own photos for this use. NORMALLY you still get use of your own photos, and I would have made that assumption on this contest too.

- Janna

Here's where I'm in wholehearted agreement with Janna - this IS unusual, in the sense that most photography contests do NOT have this restriction.

And I have to put myself in the category of those who think this is rather overbearing and unnecessary. I don't really see how this "protects" NAUI...

Unless you are either a small time photog and don't really care if you lose rights to your picture, or if you are big time enough that the prestige of having your pic used by NAUI is worth it, I'm not sure why you would enter a picture in the contest under these terms.

My .02 PSI

[olyvtx]

Unless you are either a small time photog and don't really care if you lose rights to your picture, or if you are big time enough that the prestige of having your pic used by NAUI is worth it, I'm not sure why you would enter a picture in the contest under these terms.

My .02 PSI

Why not? They're looking for quality photos for ads, calendars, website development, etc. from amateurs (thats us!)

So, go out and take some pics of what they may want and submit them into their "sweepstakes". After all...some people will be winning trips, products, bragging rights, etc...

If you feel you have a picture that's marketable and gonna make you a million bucks....don't send them that one.

From the article....
Heller told Livingston any worthy photographer will not enter if they read the rules, but Livingston replied: “There is no attempt to trick anyone into participating, and in the event all ‘worthy photographers’ choose to not participate, we will continue to operate our contest for those unworthy amateurs who want to try to win a prize or would like to see if their image is worthy enough to appear on a magazine cover or be included in the annual calendar.”

[Tom Nic]

Unless you are either a small time photog and don't really care if you lose rights to your picture, or if you are big time enough that the prestige of having your pic used by NAUI is worth it, I'm not sure why you would enter a picture in the contest under these terms.

My .02 PSI

Why not? They're looking for quality photos for ads, calendars, website development, etc. from amateurs (thats us!)

If you feel you have a picture that's marketable and gonna make you a million bucks....don't send them that one.

Agreed.

Uhm.... And kind of makes my point.