Hopefully around the middle of this month!cardiver wrote:When will that be?BASSMAN wrote:Ouch!Joshua Smith wrote: One thing it tells me is that he'll probably never invite anyone to go diving with him on this board again, and who could blame him?
I would dive with him!
After I'm back to diving..."Stupid Back thing!"
Nice! I should have my new camera by then.......BASSMAN wrote:Hopefully around the middle of this month!cardiver wrote:When will that be?BASSMAN wrote:Ouch!Joshua Smith wrote: One thing it tells me is that he'll probably never invite anyone to go diving with him on this board again, and who could blame him?
I would dive with him!
After I'm back to diving..."Stupid Back thing!"
So let's say some guy ... a moderately experienced OW diver ... purchases a Meg on Craigslist and decides he's perfectly capable of teaching himself how to use it. He heads off to Cove 2, does a solo dive on his new rebreather, and comes here to talk about what a great dive he had.Tangfish wrote: Frankly, I find it arrogant and rude when people wag their fingers at others who aren't diving "up to their standards", and offer up unsolicited "constructive criticism". I guess the policy is an extension of my own view on the subject of personal freedom vs. being told what to do "for your own good".
Bottom line: don't tell other people how to dive. Just be a good diver yourself (i.e., set a good example), and if so inclined, offer a helping hand when someone asks for assistance or advice.
Grateful Diver wrote:So let's say some guy ... a moderately experienced OW diver ... purchases a Meg on Craigslist and decides he's perfectly capable of teaching himself how to use it. He heads off to Cove 2, does a solo dive on his new rebreather, and comes here to talk about what a great dive he had.Tangfish wrote: Frankly, I find it arrogant and rude when people wag their fingers at others who aren't diving "up to their standards", and offer up unsolicited "constructive criticism". I guess the policy is an extension of my own view on the subject of personal freedom vs. being told what to do "for your own good".
Bottom line: don't tell other people how to dive. Just be a good diver yourself (i.e., set a good example), and if so inclined, offer a helping hand when someone asks for assistance or advice.
Do you suggest to him that what he's doing is dangerous? Maybe point out a few things that he doesn't understand? Would you even suggest to him that taking the class is way worth the money?
Wouldn't all of those things be offering unsolicited advice? Is it arrogant and rude to point out to someone that what they don't know can get them injured or dead before they even realize what's happening?
I respect that this is your board, and you can make any rules you want. I understand that if I want to post here, I need to respect those rules ... and I honestly try to.
But I don't agree with this one at all ... it's overly broad, and assumes the worst about people who may only be trying to help someone avoid an accident.
... Bob (Grateful Diver)
???cardiver wrote: Nice! I should have my new camera by then.......
What if the guy had training and decided he didn't need any more bailout than his diluent? Would this be all that different than running an Al80 down to 800psi at 100ft then ascending? Assuming 19+cf of dil, its roughly the same amount of gas.Joshua Smith wrote:I guess some of us see a difference between diving a CCR with no training and diving to 100' on an AL80.
Sounder wrote:Under normal circumstances, I would never tell another man how to shave his balls... but this device should not be kept secret.
Glad my ladder is long.....spatman wrote:Josh, you shouldn't drive a green van. everyone knows green is a dangerous color on the road and it will surely kill you. you should know this just by reading the internet, and by driving that green van you are endangering yourself and everyone around you. i, for one, would never drive with someone in a green van, and i would think most of the people on this board wouldn't either.
those headlights and turn signals aren't nearly bright enough either. how is anyone supposed to see you indicating your turn on the foggy roads here in the PNW? go replace them with halogens before you get lost or hurt someone.
that ladder strapped to the top of your van? useless. that thing is nowhere near long enough to work here in the PNW. everyone who drives a van with a ladder on their roof knows you need at least an 18' ladder to be safe and be able to reach your objective. you shouldn't have wasted your money on it, and might as well start saving to buy a better one now.
your gas mileage sucks, too. that's partly because you don't know how to drive efficiently and waste gas that you should be saving for your return trip. instead, you run out quickly and have to siphon off your friends for the return home. someday you'll be driving with someone you don't know well, who won't keep you visible in their mirrors, and will leave you behind. learn to be more fuel efficient and plan your usage better.
and lastly, whoever taught you to drive was a terrible instructor. you obviously went to one of those 2 day driving schools where they make you drive around a parking lot through orange cones, instead of giving you real world experience and training on the open roads. i know several really good driving instructors you should learn from before you run over someone's dog or worse. PM me and i'll send you their info.
welcome to NW Driving Club, i hope i answered all your questions and set you straight well before you even thought to ask them.
Within reason. Everyone's missing this part of what Calvin had to say:CaptnJack wrote:What if the guy had training and decided he didn't need any more bailout than his diluent? Would this be all that different than running an Al80 down to 800psi at 100ft then ascending? Assuming 19+cf of dil, its roughly the same amount of gas.Joshua Smith wrote:I guess some of us see a difference between diving a CCR with no training and diving to 100' on an AL80.
Mums the word, anyone can dive however they see fit? (which I agree with, but give people some latitude for discussion too IMHO)
OBVIOUSLY, if someone who doesn't know better announces a suicidal dive plan here, anyone with a shred of decency is going to speak up about it; and even though I don't work here any more, I'm pretty sure management isn't going to ban them for it.Whether or not the OP dives to 100' on an AL80 is a decision that they have to make for themselves. If they are a certified diver and not blatantly exceeding the boundaries of their training and experience, or posting maliciously false safety-related information, then they are just as entitled as anyone else is to posting about their dives.
Sounder wrote:Under normal circumstances, I would never tell another man how to shave his balls... but this device should not be kept secret.
Of course there's a difference ... but the rule says ...Joshua Smith wrote:I guess some of us see a difference between diving a CCR with no training and diving to 100' on an AL80.
I'm sorry, but I didn't ask for your advise on that subject and I must ask that you abide by the rules of NWDC and not give it unless explicitly asked forJoshua Smith wrote:Maybe so. Feel free to take it up with the folks who run the board.
*yes, this is sarcasm*
" the crap out of every post that has a potential conflict.
I don't care what the rule says. Josh should take the shag carpet off the walls of his van and get rid of that zebra skin on his waterbed!spatman wrote:Josh, you shouldn't drive a green van. everyone knows green is a dangerous color on the road and it will surely kill you. you should know this just by reading the internet, and by driving that green van you are endangering yourself and everyone around you. i, for one, would never drive with someone in a green van, and i would think most of the people on this board wouldn't either.
those headlights and turn signals aren't nearly bright enough either. how is anyone supposed to see you indicating your turn on the foggy roads here in the PNW? go replace them with halogens before you get lost or hurt someone.
that ladder strapped to the top of your van? useless. that thing is nowhere near long enough to work here in the PNW. everyone who drives a van with a ladder on their roof knows you need at least an 18' ladder to be safe and be able to reach your objective. you shouldn't have wasted your money on it, and might as well start saving to buy a better one now.
your gas mileage sucks, too. that's partly because you don't know how to drive efficiently and waste gas that you should be saving for your return trip. instead, you run out quickly and have to siphon off your friends for the return home. someday you'll be driving with someone you don't know well, who won't keep you visible in their mirrors, and will leave you behind. learn to be more fuel efficient and plan your usage better.
and lastly, whoever taught you to drive was a terrible instructor. you obviously went to one of those 2 day driving schools where they make you drive around a parking lot through orange cones, instead of giving you real world experience and training on the open roads. i know several really good driving instructors you should learn from before you run over someone's dog or worse. PM me and i'll send you their info.
welcome to NW Driving Club, i hope i answered all your questions and set you straight well before you even thought to ask them.
"strongly discouraged" does not equal "we will infest your crotch with the fleas of a thousand camels and remove you from the internet".Grateful Diver wrote:Of course there's a difference ... but the rule says ...
Constructive criticism of other members is strongly discouraged unless explicitly asked for by a poster. In other words, do not give advice to others unless it’s explicitly asked for by that person.
Grateful Diver wrote:Of course there's a difference ... but the rule says ...Joshua Smith wrote:I guess some of us see a difference between diving a CCR with no training and diving to 100' on an AL80.
Constructive criticism of other members is strongly discouraged unless explicitly asked for by a poster. In other words, do not give advice to others unless it’s explicitly asked for by that person.
It makes no distiction with respect to why you may be offering "constructive criticism" ... only that it's strongly discouraged unless explicitly asked for by the poster. So in that respect, offering any advice or criticism in the example I posted above is breaking the rules.
That's my point, Josh ... the rule is broad, assumes the worst of people who probably have the best of intentions, and ... as you just demonstrated ... will probably be selectively enforced based on the personal opinions and diving philosophy of the enforcer.
OK, so now I'll give you another example.
Someone comes onto the board and posts about a disorienting situation they had underwater. They ask what might have caused it. They casually mention that while they were disoriented and unable to see, their dive buddy swam away ... and that they had to end the dive solo. They didn't see anything wrong or unusual with this.
By the rules, I can't point out that as disturbing as the disorientation is ... having a dive buddy just swim off and leave you there at a time when you're incapacitated is an even bigger issue ... and probably an indication that there's some deficiencies in their approach to this dive that should be addressed. I can't say that ... no matter how strongly I feel that having a dive buddy swim off and leave you alone at a time when you are incapacitated completely invalidates the whole reason for diving with a buddy in the first place. I can't suggest that maybe ... just maybe ... this isn't a very safe approach to diving with a buddy.
I can't bring that up. I just have to sit and wonder what would've happened if this disorientation was the onset of something more serious ... and wonder how long it's gonna be before this approach to "buddy" diving ends up leaving us with one less person in our community.
There's such a thing as common sense ... but you don't know what you don't know ... and if you don't even understand why something might be putting you at a high risk, how are you supposed to ask for advice about it?
... Bob (Grateful Diver)
How about a case of "Wow that guy ALMOST drove off a cliff, and didn't even notice or acknowledge that the cliff was there" ? Should we all shut up and not maybe suggest that what they have done was dangerous? Or just shrug and walk away, as to avoid the appearance of "telling them how to drive"?spatman wrote:"strongly discouraged" does not equal "we will infest your crotch with the fleas of a thousand camels and remove you from the internet".Grateful Diver wrote:Of course there's a difference ... but the rule says ...
Constructive criticism of other members is strongly discouraged unless explicitly asked for by a poster. In other words, do not give advice to others unless it’s explicitly asked for by that person.
"advice" does not equal "holy crap, that guy is about to jump of a cliff! maybe i should suggest not doing that?"
you all are missing the forest for the trees. stop looking at the extremes, and think about the day to day.
with water and drink it, not snort the powder directly from the packet, right? 
" - SpatmanRight - it might be wrong or unusual according to what you define as a buddy, but for others, a buddy represents something different - you don't know what was discussed or expected. They might be aware of your own reasoning, but something else works better for them. The problem is one of attitude and respect. If you have some concerns, start discussion - do it respectfully and with the attitude that you just might learn something yourself - something that contradicts your initial reaction. Open your mind. This whole thing started with a few people having just enough information to jump down the OP's throat - ridiculing his breathing gas plan and referring to it as "getting stupid". That's just plain rude and offensive - and as you mentioned earlier in the thread that's not a good way to influence people. That's the unsolicited criticism referred to in the TOS. Asking for more information and engaging the OP in a thread that's aimed at learning more about their philosophy - maybe even getting to a compare/contrast situation - that's likely to produce something that has value to anybody reading along. If it reaches a point where you're saying "your way is wrong and mine is right" instead of "personally I find more comfort in this method or strategy because..." then it has gone too far. Don't patronize others by assuming they want or need your helping hand.Grateful Diver wrote:Someone comes onto the board and posts about a disorienting situation they had underwater. They ask what might have caused it. They casually mention that while they were disoriented and unable to see, their dive buddy swam away ... and that they had to end the dive solo. They didn't see anything wrong or unusual with this.
you're missing my point, jake. when someone comes close to death, then it's no longer just "advice" or "constructive criticism".Nwbrewer wrote:How about a case of "Wow that guy ALMOST drove off a cliff, and didn't even notice or acknowledge that the cliff was there" ? Should we all shut up and not maybe suggest that what they have done was dangerous? Or just shrug and walk away, as to avoid the appearance of "telling them how to drive"?
spatman wrote:you're missing my point, jake. when someone comes close to death, then it's no longer just "advice" or "constructive criticism".Nwbrewer wrote:How about a case of "Wow that guy ALMOST drove off a cliff, and didn't even notice or acknowledge that the cliff was there" ? Should we all shut up and not maybe suggest that what they have done was dangerous? Or just shrug and walk away, as to avoid the appearance of "telling them how to drive"?
me telling you that your pink snorkel is useless and you'd be better off without one is advice.
we're on the same page, rachel. you don't need to witness a diver dying to take this sport seriously.rjarnold wrote:The point is that I'd rather have someone say something - once, nicely, and without bias. Perhaps this matter would be taken more seriously if you watched someone die scuba diving from something totally preventable. If someone would have just spoken up... things might have been different. The forum isn't a substitute for real world experience, or whatever that is supposed to mean - but if you could prevent a tragedy, wouldn't you? Again, I understand the sentiment behind the rule, but strongly believe it needs to be better worded so that people aren't put off of saying something and possibly preventing a tragedy.
FWIW - I never go anywhere without my pink snorkel - it has been very rewarding for me.spatman wrote:me telling you that your pink snorkel is useless
