HOG regulators

[Tom Nic]

Ironic.... I'm betting this thread is going to sell a bunch of Hog gear...

Seems fair to me.

Yup. I know I'll be checking them out and they weren't even on my radar before this thread.

[lamont]

Actually there are a few posts/folks other than Ag47 who have an obvious bias, but won't disclose what the actual issue or even the actual HOG item they had an issue with. Treat those opinions with caution, there are purported experts everywhere.

I can testify to having assisted in diagnosing a major wing failure in a HOG wing -- not my own -- owned by one of the previous posters in this thread. While that doesn't make me an "expert" it did not impress me with the quality. If that makes me "biased" so be it. And before you go counter-slamming on other manufacturers again, I've probably seen more DSS wings worn around here than anything else.

We've been over this before, though, in other threads...

And I recognize that shit fails and no manufacturer is perfect and every single product on Amazon has a one-star review from someone that got a broken piece of junk that isn't indicative of the quality of 99% of the product that ships. All I can do, however, is offer N=1 that I saw a piece of gear fail fairly badly.

And I assume that other people reading this thread can probably form their own opinions without you throwing around charges of "bias" and "purported experts", etc.

[Mongo]

^^^^^^

Great. Angry poop slinging to follow....

I am sure there is history unbeknownst to many, but can we all just be friends?

We just went through a storm of high velocity poop.

[lamont]

^^^^^^

Great. Angry poop slinging to follow....

I am sure there is history unbeknownst to many, but can we all just be friends?

We just went through a storm of high velocity poop.

This is a thread about a gear manufacturer's quality, and I saw wing of theirs have a major inner bladder failure that prevented it from being used.

I guess I don't understand how this is "throwing poop" or not being "friendly".

Can we only say nice things about gear on NWDC and never be critical of it at all? Not report our experiences?

[cerich]

Actually there are a few posts/folks other than Ag47 who have an obvious bias, but won't disclose what the actual issue or even the actual HOG item they had an issue with. Treat those opinions with caution, there are purported experts everywhere.

I can testify to having assisted in diagnosing a major wing failure in a HOG wing -- not my own -- owned by one of the previous posters in this thread. While that doesn't make me an "expert" it did not impress me with the quality. If that makes me "biased" so be it. And before you go counter-slamming on other manufacturers again, I've probably seen more DSS wings worn around here than anything else.

We've been over this before, though, in other threads...

And I recognize that shit fails and no manufacturer is perfect and every single product on Amazon has a one-star review from someone that got a broken piece of junk that isn't indicative of the quality of 99% of the product that ships. All I can do, however, is offer N=1 that I saw a piece of gear fail fairly badly.

And I assume that other people reading this thread can probably form their own opinions without you throwing around charges of "bias" and "purported experts", etc.

"major Wing Failure"? Really???? What was the nature of it?

I am aware of a wing recently returned with a cut thru the outer shell and bladder, looked like somebody got it with a box cutter, funny thing the bag it came in had no holes so really no clue how that happened. owner got a new wing no charge. i have no clue if it was the factory or the dealer(or end user by mistake) but am 100% sure it wasn't in our hands.

Had one wing that frayed where the corrugated hose is held, replaced that puppy free.

I can think of maybe 6-7 wings total that I have replaced under warranty. That's all. Really. That's far less than a 1% return rate, which is pretty darn good for a scuba brand. Having been a rep with two of the BIG brands I can tell you for certain that that is VERY good.



Regardless, the bladder seams have a lifetime warranty and I'm in the business of taking care of peopl

[Tom Nic]

Poop we will squish. (Ewwww)

Respectful reporting of experience is of course fine.

As has been mentioned the best products will get a one out of five, none is perfect. It's good to hear experiences, especially when they are somewhat verifiable and consistent (as opposed to the random innuendo that helped fire the previous storm of the poop). I'm about avoiding drama more than most, but would not quash respectful discussion.

So far so good.

[CaptnJack]

Actually there are a few posts/folks other than Ag47 who have an obvious bias, but won't disclose what the actual issue or even the actual HOG item they had an issue with. Treat those opinions with caution, there are purported experts everywhere.

I can testify to having assisted in diagnosing a major wing failure in a HOG wing -- not my own -- owned by one of the previous posters in this thread. While that doesn't make me an "expert" it did not impress me with the quality. If that makes me "biased" so be it. And before you go counter-slamming on other manufacturers again, I've probably seen more DSS wings worn around here than anything else.

We've been over this before, though, in other threads...

And I recognize that shit fails and no manufacturer is perfect and every single product on Amazon has a one-star review from someone that got a broken piece of junk that isn't indicative of the quality of 99% of the product that ships. All I can do, however, is offer N=1 that I saw a piece of gear fail fairly badly.

And I assume that other people reading this thread can probably form their own opinions without you throwing around charges of "bias" and "purported experts", etc.

So was this one of the "6 or 7" wings Chris has accepted as a return or what? Do you think that "6 or 7" number is BS cause you have personally seen more than 1 fail? Are you, Kees, and Laura all talking about the same wing, that would be an important point to disclose...

[cerich]

Folks, if there is a problem with EDGE or HOG gear I want nothing more than to hear about it. As quickly as possible.

Make no mistake, sometimes there is a systemic issue (my b/up lights and the springs on my OPV that lead to a CPSC recall come to mind) that absolutely is an issue, those things will happen. Sometimes there is an user issue that presents to the user as a manuf. error... However, unlike some companies in this industry I will NOT attempt to conduct "silent recalls" or suppress my dealers or divers from freely sharing their experiences with my gear. I want the truth to be the best selling feature of my products, even if the truth is we have a problem and how we handle said problem.

^^^^^^

Great. Angry poop slinging to follow....

I am sure there is history unbeknownst to many, but can we all just be friends?

We just went through a storm of high velocity poop.

This is a thread about a gear manufacturer's quality, and I saw wing of theirs have a major inner bladder failure that prevented it from being used.

I guess I don't understand how this is "throwing poop" or not being "friendly".

Can we only say nice things about gear on NWDC and never be critical of it at all? Not report our experiences?

[vbcoachchris]

Actually there are a few posts/folks other than Ag47 who have an obvious bias, but won't disclose what the actual issue or even the actual HOG item they had an issue with. Treat those opinions with caution, there are purported experts everywhere.

I can testify to having assisted in diagnosing a major wing failure in a HOG wing -- not my own -- owned by one of the previous posters in this thread. While that doesn't make me an "expert" it did not impress me with the quality. If that makes me "biased" so be it. And before you go counter-slamming on other manufacturers again, I've probably seen more DSS wings worn around here than anything else.

We've been over this before, though, in other threads...

And I recognize that shit fails and no manufacturer is perfect and every single product on Amazon has a one-star review from someone that got a broken piece of junk that isn't indicative of the quality of 99% of the product that ships. All I can do, however, is offer N=1 that I saw a piece of gear fail fairly badly.

And I assume that other people reading this thread can probably form their own opinions without you throwing around charges of "bias" and "purported experts", etc.

I am a HOG equipment dealer, so I am obviously biased toward the gear.

I repaired the wing in question free of charge.

The wing had a puncture hole of similar size and shape on BOTH sides of the bladder. It was not near a seam.

The “defect” looked a lot like my Halcyon wing inner bladder did, when I “pinched” it between two sets of doubles in my truck bed. Which of course was not a Halcyon wing issue, but instead the result of my careless handling of my equipment.

Scott

[Waynne Fowler]

While my initial experiences with the HOG reg's may have left me less than impressed, I must say that Chris's personal participation in this thread is VERY impressive. Seem's there's no shirking from even the hard questions. I love a mfg who'll jump right in the fire with me and grab's a bucket on the way. That's a hugely valuable asset in this sport.

Kudo's Chris

[cerich]

ah...that happens with all brands. Some manufs use all urethane bladders and they REALLY are susceptible to that problem.

[Kees]

Lamont and I are talking about the same wing. I kept it in a bin in my backseat with most of my other more-fragile items (generally wings, regs, backup lights, masks and fins). I had not dove the wing for awhile and one evening got it out to loan, and it had two mysterious holes in it that caused it to be unable to hold gas. The holes matched up on either side of the bladder and the wing had approximately 40 dives on it. I contacted Cerich and he was willing to help but the timing corresponded to my switch to doubles and need for a new wing. Scott Christopher, a HOG dealer, repaired the wing for free and I subsequently sold it. I keep my current wing in this box and have taken to putting my backplate in with it and have yet to have any issues.

Having dove a Halcyon explorer wing similar in shape to the 55lb HOG wing as well as a donut wing (the Halcyon Evolve) and taking this experience into account, I decided to buy an Evolve. I believe this wing to be of a higher manufacturing quality and correspondingly higher price (MSRP). Whether the price difference is worth the quality difference is up to you to determine. I have 40 dives on a (bought new) HOG wing that tore without mistreatment, and 150 dives on a (bought used) Halcyon wing that has not.

My experience with regulators was over approximately the same time period. I put about 40 dives on two second stages and a first stage, and had some issues with the stock mouthpiece sliding off the regulator, which continued after I replaced the ziptie and mouthpiece. This concerned me, because it could potentially disable a regulator during a dive, and I saw it as possibly indicative of deeper issues. I believe I contacted Cerich about this as well, and he was willing to try to help sort the issue out, but I decided to move to a different manufacturer at this point. I ended up with a pair of ScubaPro mk25/g250s that I love and these came at approximately a 20% premium (used Scubapro Regs vs. new HOG regs).

I also have a HOG SPG that I continue to use. It is my understanding that all manufacturers are currently selling SPGs manufactured by the same company in Italy to the same specs, and they all appear mostly the same with the exception of the face color. If I had my choice, I would have gone with a white face SPG rather than a black face solely because my buddies bitch about it being hard to read. HOG does sell white face SPGs and at a reasonable price (especially considering that they are, to the best of my knowledge, identical to other SPGs, excepting the branding and marking of the face).

I have had excellent service from a number of HOG dealers (Sound Aquatics and Dive Right in Scuba) and Cerich, who continues to have an incredible online presence that should be the envy of any manufacturer. Unfortunately, I have had a number of issues to test the HOG support network. I have not yet had to test the ScubaPro or Halcyon support system as I have not had any issues with their used gear that I have purchased. To me, this makes the choice clear. If I weren't so stupid for diving, and I wanted/needed to save a little money, I might have continued with HOG. At less than half the price of new ScubaPro or Halcyon, this is certainly legitimate choice to make.

As a full-time college student (and dive bum), my gear preference is not with HOG at this time, despite the cost savings. My experience has led me to believe that that 50% savings comes from both a reduction in quality as well as a reduction in marketing costs, and I would prefer to pay a premium for what I believe to be the best gear available.

[Alaska-Herb]

OK after following this thread I have a question Where does a person in Alaska get information on / buy HOG stuff?

[Dashrynn]

While I have no hog products, I hope to have a doubles wing in the future from hog. But, I would like to note some manufactures arent very respectable nor truthful when confronted with the truth and we all know who that is.
Here's some product history that could have gone wrong but didn't, oh and one that was horrible

Though everyone had their doubts about my hollis scooter it runs just fine for 2 HOURS straight on low.

Bad light with parts from a small maglite. Didn't keep word on return.

Golem wing which has been through 100+ dives and has barely any wear on it and the inflator. Wasn't treated nicely either.

So sometimes its case to case but not every underdog (and growing to be a big dog) company is bad.


Oh and to the h.o.g (head operations guy) how much estimated to rebuild first and second stage? Warranty after 5 years? Please forgive my ignorance, I haven't read into those two things.

[cerich]

the repair cost is set by my dealers,

reg warranty is

Regulators have a Original Owner Limited Lifetime (with proof of purchase) and All Owners 7 year limited warranty (from original owner purchase or manuf. date when available) all non serviceable components except for hoses and mouthpieces. Hoses enjoy a 3 year limited warranty and mouthpieces enjoy a warranty up to the point you bite thru them.

[Krake]

I can state that I have NEVER had one communication from Evergreen expressing any concerns or complaints regarding the HOG regulators. In fact to my knowledge I was the first brand to sell to Evergreen and indeed at the Tacoma show in 2010 paid for half their booth to support their new business.(and promote mine as well)

Chris,

My name is Nena and I am one of the owners of Evergreen Dive Service. I just recently established an account at NWDC because customers contacted me to make me aware of this string of communications. I would like to apologize if I did not cut and paste your comments correctly. Again, I am new to this.

You are correct that you have “NEVER had one communication from Evergreen.” If we had or have concerns or complaints, we would have and we will communicate with you directly. It would be greatly appreciated if you would extend the same professional courtesy.

I cannot speak to Aaron's alleged post. Please address your concerns with him directly. Any comments he has made or will make in the future are his own and do not represent Evergreen Dive Service.

I also want to make sure I am not misunderstood on this post. Aaron is an awesome employee and we (Evergreen Dive Service) and our customers hold him in a very high regard.

[lamont]

I can testify to having assisted in diagnosing a major wing failure in a HOG wing -- not my own -- owned by one of the previous posters in this thread.

Are you, Kees, and Laura all talking about the same wing, that would be an important point to disclose...

And if you would bother to read what I wrote, I disclosed that.

I didn't want to speak for Kees at the time I posted it, since I didn't know how that issue got resolved, so I left his name out of it, but I did disclose I was talking about the same issue.

[gutholmj]

mouthpieces are a subjective thing, some folks love them. Either way if you want a new mouthpiece send me a pm with your address.

Now that's customer service! Thanks.

[cerich]

OK after following this thread I have a question Where does a person in Alaska get information on / buy HOG stuff?

ask you local dealer if they would like to carry it, I don't require them to buy a ton of gear to be a dealer or play the usual games. If that isn't possible just call any of my dealers and I'm sure they would love to help you out!

[kdupreez]

Would be interesting to have seen the "tear" in the wing.. Kees, I'd honestly be suspect if that wing tore on the seam, but I can not see that a wing will spontaneously "tear" through and through on both sides of the wing in the exact location.. it sounds like a pinch of some sort. I've pinched my Dive Rite wings before and looked exactly like that..

that being said, its my personal opinion that the Halcyon wings with Nylon inner bladders are of very high quality and might be slightly more resistant to that kind of pinch and tear.

** One suggestion/hint/nudge for Chris would be to invest in developing Donut style doubles wings..

All of the people I dive with are diving donut style doubles wings nowadays.. either Halcyon, DSS, Hollis or Agir. All the HOG fans LOVE their gear and single wings, but all do not dive HOG doubles wings due to the lack of Donut style.

And at this point in my opinion there is a big market still for a good quality and affordable doubles donut wing for steel tanks.. most doubles are designed with AL80's in mind and the 45-48lb donut style ad 55-60lb donut style "affordable" wing market is open there for the taking.

When I teach classes I recommend Hollis or Halcyon donuts at this point for that reason and if of HOG supply those, that would be awesome alternative !

My 2 cents

[cerich]

Would be interesting to have seen the "tear" in the wing.. Kees, I'd honestly be suspect if that wing tore on the seam, but I can not see that a wing will spontaneously "tear" through and through on both sides of the wing in the exact location.. it sounds like a pinch of some sort. I've pinched my Dive Rite wings before and looked exactly like that..

that being said, its my personal opinion that the Halcyon wings with Nylon inner bladders are of very high quality and might be slightly more resistant to that kind of pinch and tear.

** One suggestion/hint/nudge for Chris would be to invest in developing Donut style doubles wings..

All of the people I dive with are diving donut style doubles wings nowadays.. either Halcyon, DSS, Hollis or Agir. All the HOG fans LOVE their gear and single wings, but all do not dive HOG doubles wings due to the lack of Donut style.

And at this point in my opinion there is a big market still for a good quality and affordable doubles donut wing for steel tanks.. most doubles are designed with AL80's in mind and the 45-48lb donut style ad 55-60lb donut style "affordable" wing market is open there for the taking.

When I teach classes I recommend Hollis or Halcyon donuts at this point for that reason and if of HOG supply those, that would be awesome alternative !

My 2 cents

my wings are also a nylon inner bladder, that said they can still get cut by the plate with enough force.

I have 3 more wings, all donut in development and a side mount system. Late early or early mid summer availability.

[airsix]

I bought a set of Yokohama tires because I perceived they were a good value. I drove them for 400 miles, and treated them gently, putting the car away in the garage after each use. One day before loaning my car to a friend I noticed 2 punctures in one of the tires. The tire shop I contacted repaired the tires for free, but I sold them to the shop and changed brands to Dunlop because of this experience.

Ok, this is pure fiction. I still drive on Yokos and I definitely don't treat them kindly. But I hope you get the point. Kees, you're an awesome guy and I'm not trying to make a jab at you. Seriously. Please don't be offended by this post. I don't mean any ill will. However, your experience with the wing doesn't sound like it has anything to do with a manufacturing defect or quality control. It held gas for 40 dives and then suddenly 2 matching holes materialized. It sure sounds like the wing experienced some trauma when nobody was looking. Trauma that would have disabled any brand of wing.

[kdupreez]

my wings are also a nylon inner bladder, that said they can still get cut by the plate with enough force.

Did not know that!! very good news!! and as some other people, I might just have to look at HOG very soon!!

I have 3 more wings, all donut in development and a side mount system. Late early or early mid summer availability.

Awesome! Now this is even better news!! Chris - how does one get hold of these donut doubles of yours for evaluation? Any timeframe for when they hit the market for a "early preview" or is the retail date what we have to wait for?

This thread (however misguided or side-tracked it got) was GREAT education for me on HOG gear!!

We need to get a decent HOG dealer in town and organize a HOG Demo Days !!! I'd be there for sure and I bet a bunch of people from the forum!

Koos

[spatman]

I have 3 more wings, all donut in development and a side mount system. Late early or early mid summer availability.

any previews available of the sidemount system? how much lift does it have?

[cerich]

my wings are also a nylon inner bladder, that said they can still get cut by the plate with enough force.

Did not know that!! very good news!! and as some other people, I might just have to look at HOG very soon!!

I have 3 more wings, all donut in development and a side mount system. Late early or early mid summer availability.

Awesome! Now this is even better news!! Chris - how does one get hold of these donut doubles of yours for evaluation? Any timeframe for when they hit the market for a "early preview" or is the retail date what we have to wait for?

This thread (however misguided or side-tracked it got) was GREAT education for me on HOG gear!!

We need to get a decent HOG dealer in town and organize a HOG Demo Days !!! I'd be there for sure and I bet a bunch of people from the forum!

Koos

retail date is normally when I show/announce product. That way no games. I hate the "we have something so cool...soon and sometimes never shows up"

Where are you? I have a couple of great dealers in the nw.