Some thoughts

[Tom Nic]

I'm going back to the locker room now.

Uhm... you can't go TOO far back in said locker room, O Guru of moderators.

Remember what happened last time? Calvin cut your ration of gruel in half, Spatty mugged you in the dark for your cigarrettes that you had so carefully accumulated from discarded butts laying around, and Rawlings... shudder... I don't even want to think about that.

[scubnewb]

Funny I was just thinking to myself that I cant keep up with what the hell is going on in this post now either let alone my original one...

Sorry, I couldn't follow all the way through this thread. I just saw the title and that the OP was Josh Smith, and figured I'd better make sure he didn't hurt himself.

Please carry on with the pissing match.

or go diving....

[Joshua Smith]

People sometimes ask me why I don't post here much.

I'm going back to the locker room now.

What you do post is generally pretty funny though

Agreed!!, but I have to admit, what you do in the locker room is sometimes a little strange.. Even by a south african's standards

.

I studied under professor Ainsle. He taught me a few tricks, and I showed him a few things, too.

[diverden]

Funny I was just thinking to myself that I cant keep up with what the hell is going on in this post now either let alone my original one...

Hehehe. It took me 2 years to get my OW cert on 2 different warm water vacations. Then I moved to Seattle and learned you can dive here? Cool! I did 3 dives with idiots, one of which almost killing himself by "accidentally" wearing 60 lbs of lead. The 3 dives were in ill fitting wetsuits with an aluminum 80, and under weighted in currents I could not handle. I did not feel at all confident in diving. Smart move! So I took PADI AOW with less than 10 dives under my belt. Was that rushing it? Absolutely not. Did I think it would be cool to keep learning and be an instructor one day. Totally.

Another couple of observations from this and the original thread: can you become a good diver without getting an AOW card? Yes. Do people with or without an AOW card with many dives think they're great and actually suck? Absolutely. Should a novice diver get his AOW card and then think it's ok to immediately do a dive to 130? Absolutely not.

I think the main point goes back to Josh's OP on this thread: it depends on the person. Again, we're not talking about diving the Doria here it's "I want my PADI AOW card." But, should someone with only a couple dozen dives or less, dive to 130 from shore, at night in the Puget sound or a dark lake? I think it's a really bad idea. Not unless you have calculated your gas usage, have a sound plan, have with you someone that's done it a few times before, know the local currents and can navigate back to safety with ample reserve.

There's nothing down there worth dying for, but it's pretty fun checking it out properly trained and equipped!

[airsix]

Funny I was just thinking to myself that I cant keep up with what the hell is going on in this post now either let alone my original one...

To understand this thread you need a history lesson. Go here to read the full adventure known as "There and Back Again. A Tale of Special Idiots", by Nailer99. When you've read all 166 pages including the source threads (for context) you'll have unlocked all the secrets including the mysteries of aspic molds, fenestration, and which is truly more powerful: time or lightning.

Ben

[Beefcake]

Funny I was just thinking to myself that I cant keep up with what the hell is going on in this post now either let alone my original one...

To understand this thread you need a history lesson. Go here to read the full adventure known as "There and Back Again. A Tale of Special Idiots", by Nailer99. When you've read all 166 pages including the source threads (for context) you'll have unlocked all the secrets including the mysteries of aspic molds, fenestration, and which is truly more powerful: time or lightning.

Ben

Ok, I read it all. I learned that Hitler wasn't AOW, and I learned the proper way to perform a Warhammer Maneuver. I still didn't learn whether I should take AOW or Fundies next to improve my personal diving. I was told early on by a local instructor that I want to take a course from soon (Dave I. at UWW in Tigard) that I shouldn't take AOW until I had some post-cert experience. I have now done boat dives, deep dives (90's), night and low-viz dives, solo dives ("same ocean" dives that were aborted by supposed dive buddies), hunting, etc. It feels like time to learn some buoyancy skills, better navigation, and something other than a flutter kick. My short-term goals are:
1) Better skills and lower SAC rate
2) C-card for travel (a couple of possible trips to FL next year; I wasn't asked for an AOW card in Hawaii, but I've heard it is commonly required in FL)
3) Progression toward "Rescue"

I'm leaning toward AOW next since I might actually need the card and since I don't know of Fundies classes in Portland. Any thoughts?

[CaptnJack]

I'm leaning toward AOW next since I might actually need the card and since I don't know of Fundies classes in Portland. Any thoughts?

Come up to Seattle for a weekend class (or maybe 2 weekends split). We got lots of good instructors many of whom will go for a "getting to know you dive" and then suggest some courses and/or means to work towards your personal goals.

[Sea Goat]

Ok, I read it all. I learned that Hitler wasn't AOW, and I learned the proper way to perform a Warhammer Maneuver. I still didn't learn whether I should take AOW or Fundies next to improve my personal diving.

I've taken both. Fundies.

Maggie

[Grateful Diver]

Ok, I read it all. I learned that Hitler wasn't AOW, and I learned the proper way to perform a Warhammer Maneuver. I still didn't learn whether I should take AOW or Fundies next to improve my personal diving.

I've taken both. Fundies.

Maggie

Hmmm ... see the stated goals ...

My short-term goals are:
1) Better skills and lower SAC rate
2) C-card for travel (a couple of possible trips to FL next year; I wasn't asked for an AOW card in Hawaii, but I've heard it is commonly required in FL)
3) Progression toward "Rescue"

Fundies will accomplish #1
Fundies won't do squat to grant you access to a a boat that requires AOW (#2)
Depending on agency, Fundies won't let you accomplish #3. NAUI allows Rescue without AOW ... most other agencies don't.

Fundies is a great class ... but it's not a good fit for the stated goals.

On the other hand, not all AOW classes will accomplish #1. You need to shop around for the right instructor.

Beefcake, you're in the Portland area, get ahold of Wylerbear ... she teaches down there. Or if you're willing to come up to the Seattle area, you have more options for an AOW class that will help you accomplish all three goals ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[Beefcake]

Thank you all. I realized after I posted that this wasn't the right thread to ask my question; I thought I was still in ScubaNewb's AOW thread. Anyway, as long as I've hijacked this one, I guess my question was really where fundies fits into the equation; Is it better after 100 dives and rescue as a personal skills tune-up, or is that too late? I know it isn't part of the PADI/SSI/NAUI progression; I'm just wondering what skill level it's aimed at.

[diverden]

Depending on agency, Fundies won't let you accomplish #3. NAUI allows Rescue without AOW ... most other agencies don't.

I'm pretty sure PADI removed the AOW requirement for Rescue. They didn't want to stop anyone from taking it.

[lamont]

Depending on agency, Fundies won't let you accomplish #3. NAUI allows Rescue without AOW ... most other agencies don't.

I'm pretty sure PADI removed the AOW requirement for Rescue. They didn't want to stop anyone from taking it.

Bummer, I've been able to use my NAUI Rescue (from Bob's first course he taught IIRC) on dive boats and they just assume that means you've got AOW and everything else... And when I lost all my cards because my wallet got stolen a year or two ago, that Rescue card was the on RSTC card that I spent $30 to get reissued...

[ljjames]

Thank you all. I realized after I posted that this wasn't the right thread to ask my question; I thought I was still in ScubaNewb's AOW thread. Anyway, as long as I've hijacked this one, I guess my question was really where fundies fits into the equation; Is it better after 100 dives and rescue as a personal skills tune-up, or is that too late? I know it isn't part of the PADI/SSI/NAUI progression; I'm just wondering what skill level it's aimed at.

Beefcake,

GUE Primer or Fundies fits in wherever you want it. I believe it would be best off right now being seen as an overlay to conventional mainstream training. The Primer workshop or Fundamentals class is not going to get you out to a diverse set of sites, expand your 'options' when on a boat dive, etc... but it will indeed help you get your skills such as buoyancy and efficiency with propulsion underwater sorted which will help you dramatically when you do decide to visit intermediate to advanced sites...

I feel that both are necessary for a well rounded diver. if all you are 'trained' to do is dive in conditions approximate to those which you were certified in (referring to basic OW), well, you'll be stuck in cove 2 practicing skills if you take Georgia or Bob's Advanced class, your 'window' of opportunity for dive sites is opened up dramatically. Night diving, slightly deeper diving, nitrox, boat diving, a bit of current, a bit of navigation, etc... It makes you a more desirable dive buddy as well, as although the card doesn't actually 'describe' your skill level, it tells someone like me that if we go diving tomorrow, it won't be your first night dive ever or your first boat dive etc...

I am fully confident in both of those instructors ability to teach you gas management for an 80' dive, and help you make sound decisions with regards to gear purchase

In LJ's perfect world, OW, Advanced and GUE Primer (or equivalent) would be combined and taught as a "northwest diver" program (which i believe is essentially what Bob does). You'd come out very squared away for a 'new' diver, with all the tools necessary to go forth and start diving and gaining real world experience...

[Tangfish]

I second the recommendation to take Bob's AOW class. I don't know too much about Georgia's but I know her and she's great.

[ktb]

In LJ's perfect world, OW, Advanced and GUE Primer (or equivalent) would be combined and taught as a "northwest diver" program (which i believe is essentially what Bob does). You'd come out very squared away for a 'new' diver, with all the tools necessary to go forth and start diving and gaining real world experience...

Hear, hear!! The sad part is that it would never sell because of the cost. It's the "you don't know what you don't know" until you get into diving here. Would I have paid for it in the beginning? Hell no. But in 20/20 hindsight, do I wish I had learned that way? Good god yes.

[Grateful Diver]

Everybody's different. A "combined" class would serve some folks well, and not others at all. Some people get a significant benefit out of just taking it in small doses with some dives in between.

I used to really encourage people to get out and go diving after OW before moving on to AOW. Now my response is more like ... well, let's go diving and let me see where you're at. Some people are pretty solid straight outta OW. Others really struggle at the most basic things, and really need a few dives to process what they've learned and put it into practice.

Bottom line is before you move on to more skills, get some basic mastery on the ones you already have. Whether that takes 5 dives or 25 ... or whether you've got it straight outta OW ... is really gonna depend on the individual.

There are no perfect programs for everyone. In an ideal world, everyone would take a private class with an instructor who could evaluate their progress and move them along at just the right pace. Such a class would be different for every person who took it ... and would probably cost more than any of us wanted to pay. But then, in an ideal world, cost is no object.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[CaptnJack]

At least in my rescue class there was no skills tune-up whatsoever. Was a pretty big disappointment honestly. PM me if you want more info about who not to take it from.

[kdupreez]

I agree with CaptnJack, Rescue class is pretty much just that, a diver rescue class.. there are zero skills refinement in the class. Does it make you a MUCH better and more aware and safer dive buddy? YUP!!

So, if you were to combine AOW and Rescue, you would for sure accomplish your goals. I can also wholeheartedly recommend Bob for your AOW class! I've had AOW people from Bob come into Fundies class that I interned on and they absolutely rocked!

Also, it might be worth mentioning that a change to the Fundies program in late 2011 brought about a "Basic 5 Rescue" component, where you have the opportunity to learn unconscious diver recovery and 5 steps to a diver egress. (Its "optional" and not required to pass the class though.)

Neither Rescue or Fundies class covers CPR/First Aid/AED etc.. for that you would need to take a Red Cross or equivalent Emergency First Response class.. (which btw is a pre-requesite for Rescue class and usually taught in tandem)

drop me a PM and will be more than happy to walk you through the Primer and Fundies curriculum and goals of what wecurrently teach.

regards,

Koos

[ljjames]

In addition to those mentioned, another guy who does a top notch AOW and/or rescue class is Larry McLean. He includes BLS/CPR and DAN O2 provider. He's a local PADI and NAUI instructor

[LCF]

You know, in all of this discussion recently of the Fundamentals class, I haven't seen anybody mention one of the things that is critical about it: Fundamentals requires a very specific gear configuration. Most new divers right out of OW, if they own their own gear, do not have Fundies-compatible gear (unless they got some good and unusual advice from their instructor or shop).

AOW, Rescue, and other mainstream classes can be taken in whatever gear you happen to have, although depending on the instructor, you may get some feedback about desirable changes to your setup.

Essentials requires non-split fins and some type of long hose/bungied backup arrangement on your regulators, but you can do it in a standard BC.

Fundamentals has to be done in a backplate and wing, long hose, paddle fins arrangement. GUE is very specific about what gear you can use and how it has to be configured, because standardization is a big part of the diving system.

I do not mention this to condemn it; in fact, the gear in question works very well in Puget Sound (and elsewhere). And most Fundies instructors have at least some gear to lend or rent for classes. But new divers hearing about this class and not knowing where it fits, should know that, in addition to a skills refinement class, it is also an introduction to team diving and the philosophy behind it. You can certainly take the class for the skills, and I did, and I think a lot of people do. You can discard whatever doesn't suit you, or decide that the system works for your diving. But it will require specific equipment.

[coulterboy]

I just thought everybody needs a break from their rebuttals on this hot thread. I find the message on this song very helpful and is one of the many principles I follow in life. "You can't please everyone, so you gotta please yourself"

Too many peeps are so engrossed in configuration and so concerned whether their gear and the way they dive is acceptable in the diving world.

Enjoy folks.

http://youtu.be/TLm9KX-LvMM

[Diver_C]

Wuh-roh... I sense another thread banishment...

You know, in all of this discussion recently of the Fundamentals class, I haven't seen anybody mention one of the things that is critical about it: Fundamentals requires a very specific gear configuration. Most new divers right out of OW, if they own their own gear, do not have Fundies-compatible gear (unless they got some good and unusual advice from their instructor or shop).

AOW, Rescue, and other mainstream classes can be taken in whatever gear you happen to have, although depending on the instructor, you may get some feedback about desirable changes to your setup.

Essentials requires non-split fins and some type of long hose/bungied backup arrangement on your regulators, but you can do it in a standard BC.

Fundamentals has to be done in a backplate and wing, long hose, paddle fins arrangement. GUE is very specific about what gear you can use and how it has to be configured, because standardization is a big part of the diving system.

I do not mention this to condemn it; in fact, the gear in question works very well in Puget Sound (and elsewhere). And most Fundies instructors have at least some gear to lend or rent for classes. But new divers hearing about this class and not knowing where it fits, should know that, in addition to a skills refinement class, it is also an introduction to team diving and the philosophy behind it. You can certainly take the class for the skills, and I did, and I think a lot of people do. You can discard whatever doesn't suit you, or decide that the system works for your diving. But it will require specific equipment.

I'm sorry, I couldn't help myself

[H20doctor]

I like you all.. And I love this dive board But im sick of all this gear, training, stuff.. go dive and go see an octo, or a lumpie..

[LCF]

I went to Edmonds today, and admired the ling cod and cabezones with heads bigger than mine. Pretty soon, it won't be safe to admire them the way we did! The males are clearly staking out egg territories.

The last few hooded nudies are hanging grimly onto aged eelgrass stems, with tattered egg clusters scattered here and there around them.

Dungeness crabs were carrying mates, and fled our HID lights in terror.

And I really enjoyed being able to hover in place, back up, and do a valve drill while admiring wildlife

Okay, I looked all over for a smilie of whacking MYSELF upside the head for that last sentence. There is a grave vacuum in the smilie stable.

[CaptnJack]

Okay, I looked all over for a smilie of whacking MYSELF upside the head for that last sentence. There is a grave vacuum in the smilie stable.

I think not

Really for these kinds of questions I think they are best answered in person by a recommended/trusted instructor who's actually been in the water with you. Whether that is Bob, Georgia, BrianW, ScottC, or someone else on the "a-list" is not as critical.

I like Fundies too, and sometimes its the goals you didn't know you had which were most rewarding. But I still think getting in the water with someone who can give you personalized feedback is way better than the internets.