Perception of the DIR community?

[runamonk]

Me too. My guess is that a bunch of other folks on the board did as well.

Okay, I'll bite . . . why the cringing? Why the thought that a bunch of other folks did as well?

(as I try to keep the thread moving in a productive manner . . . )

Some of us are used to seeing these types of threads on other boards where people don't get along as well.

[lamont]

Even the acronym 'DIR' itself, has such a negative connotation, as far as I've seen. I can't think of another dive-related word that evokes eye-rolling on the scale that this word does. And, I'm admitting to you right now that I think a lot of it is undeserved. But, no matter the cause, perceptions are perceptions - and I think a big first step in curtailing some of the dislike for DIR is renaming the darn school of thought. Come on, for how commonsense most of the practices are, you have to admit - it's a pretty nonsensical and arrogant name, eh?

Kinda like DiveRite?

I went through a phase of being all uptight over the DIR acronym and wanting to self-identify as a "GUE-trained diver" and drop the use of 'DIR' completely. There was also the stress over what is or is not a "DIR diver" since I clearly have never hit the kind of bar that GUE cave 2 instructors hit, so can I really call myself that?

After awhile I got over all of it. Its just a three letter label indicating my general attitude towards diving (aggressive, but risk-averse) and my preferred training agency (GUE). I rarely ever think about what the acronym expands out to these days... If you wanted to start up a petition to have GUE drop the DIR moniker entirely I'd sign it, but I doubt it'd really do any good...

Also, I don't have too much of an emotional problem with being associated with the religious idiots that give DIR a bad name. In my other life I work on FreeBSD and Linux, and if you look at the religious zealots over on slashdot which that associates me with its the same problem. I've dealt with that for over a decade now, it just comes with the territory. Its just noise, its not my problem if people focus on the (largely unsolvable) zealot issue. Similarly its not my problem if other people focus on the name -- if the name changed tomorrow would that make anything about the GUE training agency any different? How would that make any of the diving any different?

[Joshua Smith]

Yeah. DIR flame wars are particularly ugly, and they get really bad on the net, where people sometimes feel free to say outrageous stuff they would never have the cojones to say in real life.

As far as the "DIR community" goes, I only know a few of you, and I don't really know you that well. I've been friendly with Lynne for about a year, exchanging PMs occasionally on Scubaboard, and I recently met you, Doug, and I've talked with Lamont a bit. I like all 3 of you- seem like real decent folks, and I'd really like to dive with all of you sometime.
I read lots of different dive stuff on the net, and I've seen, again and again, references to "rule #1." I know it means "don't dive with strokes,"
which means an unsafe diver. But many of us on the outside know that there's another rule, I believe it's #2 : "All non- DIR divers are strokes." I realize now that many of you DIR types don't take that rule seriously, but many of us on the outside.....well, I was actually suprised recently when both Lynne and Doug seperately threw out a casual "we should dive together sometime" comment. I mean, I really didn't know that was OK. One unfair criticism I hear a lot is that "They only dive with each other". Well, I mostly dive with my pool of dive buddies who I know and trust, too.
So, anyway, I have a lot of hope that we can all continue to get along so well- and maybe catch a dive sometime!

[Joshua Smith]

I promise I won't tell you you are gonna die because you aren't wearing a BP/W

I get enough of that from Maverick and Nailer now about the lack of 7' hose. I think I'm going to get a 6' 11" hose just to mess with them.

Actually, WE never say a word about your kit. YOU, on the other hand, have been gleefully giving us both an endless stream of grief over ours.

[lamont]

One unfair criticism I hear a lot is that "They only dive with each other". Well, I mostly dive with my pool of dive buddies who I know and trust, too.

Yeah, part of the problem is that I'm currently interested in practicing for Tech 1 and getting ready for a line dive involving towing out some silly number of stage bottles and backup scooters for the push team. Its not really that I don't want to dive with anyone else, its just that I've got objectives now which most divers just aren't even interested in...

And I know a couple of times we've been approached in the lot at cove 2 by divers who were looking for a buddy when we were planning on scooter dives out to 3k and back... I can remember one time when we did take a pickup diver in the parking lot out for a skills dive and he seemed to sit there with a puzzled look on his face as we practiced shooting bags and doing ascent drills... I don't think he got exactly what he was looking for...

[RSdancey]

First, I think that a lot of people have a strong negative reaction to DIR because on a subconscious level, they resent the implication that they are unsafe (or less safe) divers. And what REALLY bothers some people is the nagging suspicion that the implication is true.

When I was in my OW class, I had an epiphany. A lot of the stuff we were using equipment-wise was the way it was because being some other way had killed one, or more people in the past. A lot of the basic instruction was provided to tell us (without really telling us) to do things because not knowing how to do them had killed one or more people in the past. SCUBA diving is a harsh mistress -- she kills people who displease her.

I saw a line in a book once: Aware divers believe that Murphy (as in Murphy's Law) lives in their gear bag, and is trying to kill them.

An aware diver copes with that level of paranoia by paying attention to details. Making sure gear is in good shape and well maintained is the obvious first step.

Modern SCUBA instruction stops there, at least for new divers. The equipment has gotten so good that life-threatening failures are really rare. Dive computers allow most divers to engage in dives without having to pay much attention to the math or theory behind bottom times and no decompression limits. For most divers, the most dangerous thing they are likely to do is to stay too long at depth and risk OOA, which the industry has reacted to by creating artificial constraints where possible (i.e. "be back on the boat with 500psi in the tank").

DIR goes outside that envelope, and puts safety back in the hands of individual divers. The cost for being empowered is the effort required to be responsible. Learning about how gear configuration affects safety prompts many to buy new gear. Learning, and following team diving protocols means that divers have to give up their independence and stay focused on other people's welfare, not just their own. Dive planning means they have to learn how the gas in their tank gets used, and how the dive they plan to do is controlled by the amount of gas they bring.

And once you do all that, there's a tendency to proselytize. Telling other divers they are unsafe (or less safe) is a great way to make a bad impression. And since DIR is pretty unique in the diving community, its likely that if anyone is telling anyone they are un(less)safe, it's a DIR diver, all that bad PR accrues to just one style of diving and one type of diver.

On the other hand, if we don't talk about it, people who are interested, or who might become interested, won't know the system exists. So the Catch-22 is to be ready to preach, but only to those likely to be converted. That's a fine distinction that I think most people are likely to get wrong, at least some of the time.

So we end up with a population of divers who have had a "bad" experience with a DIR diver, and those people become what we call "negative equity" in the world of marketing. A drag on the positive equity of the system.

I think that the PNW is unique in that we have a large population of DIR divers who dive regularly with non-DIR divers with very little friction developing between the two groups. From what I've seen of other places where DIR has become successful, eventually it polarizes the dive community. While I'm sure there are some people who are polarized pro & con about DIR in the PNW, by and large, I think the bulk of divers either aren't sure there's anything going on, or have made their peace with DIR diving companions.

I suspect that is because the conditions here are uniquely challenging, and anyone who regularly dives in the PNW has to come to the realization that modern OW courses are not sufficient for safe diving, and they expand their skills in response. Many do that ad hoc, without any unifying "system", but in doing it at all they become inoculated against the creeping suspicion that seems to plague divers in other venues -- that the DIR guys are secretly right about their own lack of safe diving practices.

We have an additional element to throw into the mix here in the PNW. Some of the very first people to adopt DIR principles are also some of the most advanced divers. Those divers have been doing what they do for a long time, and have seen the downside of a lot of bad practices. And they're a touch elitist as a result. (And by "touch" I mean in certain circumstances "extremely"). Mix elitism with DIR, and you get a toxic brew for the uninitiated. Those are likely unfixable issues -- certain people are just the way they are, and you either learn to accept them, or you avoid them, but you can't change them. I suspect that many people's real impression of DIR is instead a personal reaction to some of the elites.

Ryan

[Joshua Smith]

One unfair criticism I hear a lot is that "They only dive with each other". Well, I mostly dive with my pool of dive buddies who I know and trust, too.

Yeah, part of the problem is that I'm currently interested in practicing for Tech 1 and getting ready for a line dive involving towing out some silly number of stage bottles and backup scooters for the push team. Its not really that I don't want to dive with anyone else, its just that I've got objectives now which most divers just aren't even interested in...

And I know a couple of times we've been approached in the lot at cove 2 by divers who were looking for a buddy when we were planning on scooter dives out to 3k and back... I can remember one time when we did take a pickup diver in the parking lot out for a skills dive and he seemed to sit there with a puzzled look on his face as we practiced shooting bags and doing ascent drills... I don't think he got exactly what he was looking for...

I bet he thought you guys were nuts.

I actually like shooting bags and doing valve drills and such.

[lamont]

I bet he thought you guys were nuts.

I actually like shooting bags and doing valve drills and such.

If you have the patience to download 41MB over my 384kbs upload speed you can judge for yourself:

http://www.scriptkiddie.org/uwphoto/P1010020.MOV

(naturally its about 4/5ths of the way through when bones is shooting a bag, so you have to download the whole damn thing... you'll know it when you see it...)

[Sounder]

Regarding Nailer's mention of Rule #1 and #2. I was well aware of the Rule #1 - Don't dive with strokes.

I was not aware however about the "all non-DIR divers are strokes." When I was first certified, I asked the aformentioned self-proclaimed "DIR God" if I was a stroke. He told me that I wasn't. When I asked why not, he said it's because I'm not trying to be, not claiming to be, and because I haven't been through the training to know better. In my understanding, his description of "a stroke" was of three people:

1. Someone who attended the trainings, but who thought they could make a better widget (i.e. tucking the long hose in an elastic band, changing a gear configuration, etc.)... because DIR is the best widget and cannot be improved upon.

2. Someone who is not initiated into the fraternity of "ours are bigger than yours."

3. Someone who was once part of the frat but who was kicked-out after deciding that one or more people within the "in-crowd" were jerks and calling them on it... from several events I've heard of, and several I witnessed/experienced in person, said people deserved much worse than the title of "jerk."

Who knows? Now that I'm not a patron of that shop, I'm probably a "stroke" too. I love my bp/w, love my long hose, love my HID, and love the fact that I can wear a shirt with a huge "DIW" on the front with pride. Hmmm... that might be a good idea... but you know of course, it'd have to be a BLACK shirt with "DIW" written in silver or brass and all my team would have to wear EXACTLY the same shirt in case of an emergency.

PS: Steding - I left a note for you on your new tank at the shop.

[CaptnJack]

Ryan there are actually there are quite a few DIR divers who don't attract any attention at all. Some of the best of divers in the PNW are actually the quietest. Sometimes, if you see them in single tank rig, you wouldn't even know they were GUE trained - its really not about the gear. I have several Cave2 buddies in this category and I know a bunch of Tech2 people who you almost never hear about at Alki or on message boards.

Richard

[Tangfish]

Even the acronym 'DIR' itself, has such a negative connotation, as far as I've seen. I can't think of another dive-related word that evokes eye-rolling on the scale that this word does. And, I'm admitting to you right now that I think a lot of it is undeserved. But, no matter the cause, perceptions are perceptions - and I think a big first step in curtailing some of the dislike for DIR is renaming the darn school of thought. Come on, for how commonsense most of the practices are, you have to admit - it's a pretty nonsensical and arrogant name, eh?

Kinda like DiveRite?

I went through a phase of being all uptight over the DIR acronym and wanting to self-identify as a "GUE-trained diver" and drop the use of 'DIR' completely. There was also the stress over what is or is not a "DIR diver" since I clearly have never hit the kind of bar that GUE cave 2 instructors hit, so can I really call myself that?

After awhile I got over all of it. Its just a three letter label indicating my general attitude towards diving (aggressive, but risk-averse) and my preferred training agency (GUE). I rarely ever think about what the acronym expands out to these days... If you wanted to start up a petition to have GUE drop the DIR moniker entirely I'd sign it, but I doubt it'd really do any good...

Also, I don't have too much of an emotional problem with being associated with the religious idiots that give DIR a bad name. In my other life I work on FreeBSD and Linux, and if you look at the religious zealots over on slashdot which that associates me with its the same problem. I've dealt with that for over a decade now, it just comes with the territory. Its just noise, its not my problem if people focus on the (largely unsolvable) zealot issue. Similarly its not my problem if other people focus on the name -- if the name changed tomorrow would that make anything about the GUE training agency any different? How would that make any of the diving any different?

I tend to think of myself as just a 'diver', it's much simpler that way

[Joshua Smith]

I bet he thought you guys were nuts.

I actually like shooting bags and doing valve drills and such.

If you have the patience to download 41MB over my 384kbs upload speed you can judge for yourself:

http://www.scriptkiddie.org/uwphoto/P1010020.MOV

(naturally its about 4/5ths of the way through when bones is shooting a bag, so you have to download the whole damn thing... you'll know it when you see it...)

Clicked on it, went out for a nice long dinner, came home and watched it. Yeah, he thought you guys were nuts. Nice work!

[Pinkpadigal]

Okay, I will play...

I think DIR is a safe way to dive. I am impressed by the training and it is a great way to dive. What bothers me is the assumption by divers that it is the ONLY way to dive.

My perception of PNW DIR divers is positive. I haven't talked to anyone around our neighborhood I would consider a DIR Nazi. On the chat boards, from around the world, that is another story. Some of the crap I read is pretty extreme and down right rude.

As many of you have said, I don't think any agency would train divers to dive unsafely. Divers develop bad habits and laziness on their own. Any diver that doesn't treat the water with respect, will die.

With all that said, I dive like a recreational diver. I don't dive with a BP/W. I don't have a long hose. However, I am a safe diver, I teach safe diving and I encourage discussion of different equipment setups, and gas management. While I am a PADI instructor, I believe there are other ways of diving and as long as everyone is having fun, and being safe, that is all that matters.

Cheers

[CaptnJack]

GUE really isn't a recreational agency. They barely have an open water class at all (I don't any have ever been held its sorta vaporware). Certainly much of "DIR" can be applied to recreational dives. But its not the "only"way to safely dive recreationally by far. For decompression or overhead diving, I find most alternatives suboptimal (for me). And yes, I find them riskier/less safe.

I think people's perceptions are likely being influenced by the general diving they are exposed to - open water, max ~100ft. That is inherently a low risk, low stress atmosphere. Hard to get too worked up about issues. Many other boards have many more experienced divers doing much more intense dives and the methodological/attitude conflicts are far more pronouced. The stakes are higher, tensions are higher, emotions flare more, etc.

Richard

[lamont]

Regarding Nailer's mention of Rule #1 and #2. I was well aware of the Rule #1 - Don't dive with strokes.

I was not aware however about the "all non-DIR divers are strokes." When I was first certified, I asked the aformentioned self-proclaimed "DIR God" if I was a stroke. He told me that I wasn't. When I asked why not, he said it's because I'm not trying to be, not claiming to be, and because I haven't been through the training to know better. In my understanding, his description of "a stroke" was of three people:

Where "stroke" comes from initially is someone who shows up in cave country with zero experience and zero skill wanting to break all the records and willing to die trying. Rule #1 originally comes from that and it should be clear why. It got mutated into "unsafe attitude" and that is nebulous enough that it mutated again into a whole other crop of b.s...

It is too bad that Rule #1 gets all the press. Really Option #1 ("don't dive") and Rule #4 ("nothing underwater is worth dying for") are better and less contentous.

[Grateful Diver]

Relating this to DIR, Calvin may not have realized that more than half the people on the Sechelt trip were DIR divers ... and I think he had a great time diving with and interacting with them. They didn't make a positive impression of DIR because it never came up as an issue ... we were just there to dive and have fun. But let one guy say something off-hand in a parking lot and it colors his impression of DIR ... because that one guy made DIR the issue. Does he speak for all DIR divers? Certainly not.

2 things, Bob:

- You're right, I didn't know that half the boat was DIR, till Doug told me that he aspired to that standard, and upon looking back (at the fact that I was the only person there w/o a BP/W)

- Please know that the exchange in the parking lot wasn't a really bad one, and didn't give me my existing impression of DIR divers. I held that stereotype since very early-on as a diver. In fact, I think the first person who ever told me about DIR transmitted the negatives to me (it wasn't their sole intention, they also spoke highly of the positives) and those negatives were only confirmed and reinforced when I arrived at SB and began to read the threads about this topic. The parking lot was just a recent example, and one of my only impressions of any of the local DIR folk, which is what Doug asked me to tell him about. Based on what we've uncovered here, I obviously have had more interactions that I wasn't even aware of (that were good ones).

My apologies to any of the DIR people who might've been offended by my first post on this subject. I've learned something from this exercise.

Yeah, what Doug said ... no apologies necessary. I chose your example simply because it's a good one to point that it's much easier to make a negative impression on people than a positive one ... especially when you're working with a group of people who already have a stereotype to overcome ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[Sounder]

It is too bad that Rule #1 gets all the press. Really Option #1 ("don't dive") and Rule #4 ("nothing underwater is worth dying for") are better and less contentous.

I think that's great. Thanks, Lamont, for helping with a better understanding. With all the "loose use" of the term, it is difficult to get a grasp on where it really came from. Clearly there is a danger for both the maverick (no offense Maverick!) diver you mentioned and his dive buddy. I also really like the "option" v. "rule" verbiage as well.

[LCF]

What it comes down to is that we all find a way to dive that pleases us and gets us what we want out of diving (or we quit doing it).

I personally think that all of us should try very hard to dive in a way that leaves the dive site in good condition for the next party (eg. no silting). We should try hard to know enough about what we are doing to be safe doing it, and we should all practice emergency skills regularly. We should think about why we use the equipment we use, and how we go about our dives, rather than just doing what somebody else said to do, or what we see somebody else doing.

If going through those things leads somebody to DIR, that's great, but you can do all those things without ever putting on a BP/W or a set of Jet fins, and you can wear colors, too. :-)

Just to reiterate another point . . . There is NO principle or recommendation in DIR training that says we shouldn't dive with non-DIR divers. In fact, that very question was asked during my Fundies course, and what Steve said was, "Of course not -- That would be ugly and elitist. However, I wouldn't do dives on the edge of the envelope unless I was sure of the other diver's skills and that we were on the same page." I don't think anybody would have a problem with that, and that's right out of the mouth of a GUE instructor.

We do tend to dive together, but mostly because nobody else wants to do ascent drills over and over again . . .

[John Rawlings]

.....because nobody else wants to do ascent drills over and over again . . .

Except tech divers trained by IANTD, TDI and NAUI. Such training, skills and the desire to keep those skills sharp are not the exclusive property of GUE.

- John

[Grateful Diver]

.....because nobody else wants to do ascent drills over and over again . . .

Except tech divers trained by IANTD, TDI and NAUI. Such training, skills and the desire to keep those skills sharp are not the exclusive property of GUE.

- John

That's true, John ... but I don't think Lynne was referring to tech divers. Lynne doesn't do tech diving. Neither do most of her regular dive buddies. They're just into practicing their skills ... it's something they enjoy doing.

A few years back I tried organizing a skills practice dive for recreational (non-GUE) divers through the other local internet board. Lots of folks said they thought it was a great idea ... but none of them showed up.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[John Rawlings]

Probably true, Bob.....since I do not know her I had no means of knowing the perspective she was coming from.....I assumed from her avatar that she might be cave qualified.

GUE really isn't a recreational agency. They barely have an open water class at all (I don't any have ever been held its sorta vaporware).
Richard

However, as Richard stated above, "GUE really isn't a recreational agency". Two of the agencies I mentioned, IANTD and TDI, aren't recreational agencies, either. Like GUE, they allow divers wanting "more" to reach higher levels of training and efficiency than what they learned about in AOW and the other recreational level courses.

Such training.....by GUE, IANTD, TDI, NAUI or anyone else....is most assuredly not for everyone, but a certain percentage will feel the need.

My only point in bringing the other agencies up is to let NWDC members know that there are additional options available for receiving the type/s of training being discussed here.

- John

[Sasquatch]

Here is the question: For those non-DIR divers out there, what is your perception of Seattle's DIR community?

My perception is that I don't seem to care much nor do I notice DIR divers beyond a healthy curiousity mostly based toward gear and configuration and how it relates to my diving style, goal, buddies and wallet. Not necessarily in that order.

So, DIR is mostly off my radar.

That could change someday.

Cheers!

[lamont]

It is too bad that Rule #1 gets all the press. Really Option #1 ("don't dive") and Rule #4 ("nothing underwater is worth dying for") are better and less contentous.

I think that's great. Thanks, Lamont, for helping with a better understanding. With all the "loose use" of the term, it is difficult to get a grasp on where it really came from. Clearly there is a danger for both the maverick (no offense Maverick!) diver you mentioned and his dive buddy. I also really like the "option" v. "rule" verbiage as well.

Another thing is that I've never heard the word 'stroke' mentioned in any GUE courses. They also don't really teach the 'rules' much -- although my fundies instructor taught rule #6 ("always look cool") as a way of hammering home that we should be cleaning up our gear and not let things dangle and "look cool" because it meant we weren't being sloppy... (rule #6 is also another misunderstood 'rule' on the internet).

All the discussion of 'strokes' and 'rule #1' is entirely internet-DIR and is not taught by GUE.

[Grateful Diver]

My only point in bringing the other agencies up is to let NWDC members know that there are additional options available for receiving the type/s of training being discussed here.

- John

In fact, my main reason for choosing to go NAUI with my tech training is that there is such an availability of good instructors here ... between Matt and the NWSD crew, Scott (currently at 5th D), Randy Williams (my current instructor), and Mel. Geoff Sutton's doing TDI and IANTD classes, and having taken some training from him, I'd recommend him. And, unfortunately, Jerome's decided to retire from teaching, and as you know he's a first-rate instructor.

We're very fortunate in the PNW to have the choices we do.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[sparky]

I thought rule #6 aplyed to every day life I had heard about Rule #6 back in my Martial Arts Days when I was in my teens and twenties

I live my life by Rule #6 dont every one

So here is what I realy dont get about the hole D I R debate
does D I R realy stand for Doing It Right or is this just some propaganda started by the folks intimadated by the fact that there may infact be a better and safer way to aproch diving?

It has long been my view that if you exit the water with the same amount of divers you entered the water with , and every one had a good time then you are Doing It Right.

Sparky