What makes a diver a "good" diver?

[Grateful Diver]

Yeah, I have a deal breaker ...

You can be a DIR diver
You can be a DIW diver
You can be a DIM diver
You can even be a DIT diver
But you can't be a DICK diver

Gotta draw the line somewhere ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[Pez7378]

Yeah, I have a deal breaker ...

You can be a DIR diver
You can be a DIW diver
You can be a DIM diver
You can even be a DIT diver
But you can't be a DICK diver

Gotta draw the line somewhere ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

B-E-A-UTIFUL Bob! I like it.

[spatman]

Yeah, I have a deal breaker ...

You can be a DIR diver
You can be a DIW diver
You can be a DIM diver
You can even be a DIT diver
But you can't be a DICK diver

Gotta draw the line somewhere ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

what about a DIY diver?

[Sounder]

Yeah, I have a deal breaker ...

You can be a DIR diver
You can be a DIW diver
You can be a DIM diver
You can even be a DIT diver
But you can't be a DICK diver

Gotta draw the line somewhere ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

what about a DIY diver?

Uh oh! That's probably a deal breaker for Jake!!

This is one of my all-time favorite Bob quotes!

[LCF]

many of you read my runaway buddy thread from a few months ago. the deal breaker is not that he panicked and bolted from me. what keeps this deal broken is that in the aftermath, there was never an initiative from him to sort out what happened, and how to learn from it. as you can tell from that thread, i sought out advice and answers, trying my best to learn from it and possibly prevent another occurrence. what i got from my buddy was the exact opposite. in fact, whenever i tried (and occasionally still try) to bring it up, he brushed it off with something like "yeah, that was a close one. anyway, what are you doing this weekend?"

Thank you for expanding my thought really effectively. The two people who are on my "never again" list both bolted, and both had a litany of explanations for why, and were not at all perturbed about making that choice, and it was clear that they would do it again if they felt like it.

[ArcticDiver]

As a person who will probably never have the high skill levels of you folks who have the luxury of being able to dive almost at will I appreciate this thread.

Interestingly the only two people I'd never dive with again both broke the dive plan by separation. One though created a problem by refusing to surface at the time previously agreed on. We had disparate gas consumption rates. I was flat out of gas. He wasn't and refused to surface. Oh well....

Anyway, thanks for the thoughts. They are helpful to this Batch Diver.

[Pez7378]

We had disparate gas consumption rates. I was flat out of gas. He wasn't and refused to surface.

Well that's a good point ArcticDiver. Someone once told me that the thumbs up isn't a question, it's an ORDER and it's not open for discussion.

It looks like this thread has run it's course, but I'd like to leave you all with why I asked the question. I have been diving with a number of people. Some I have known, some I have come to know, and some who were just a dive buddy for the hour. I can only think of two or three people who I would not want to dive with again. One because of an impossibly high consumption rate (also a smoker), One because of poor buddy skills (i.e. may not even be aware that there is anyone else diving with him), and one for bolting to the surface. I've dived, dove, doven Uh....been underwater with Padi DiveMasters, Padi OW, Padi AOW, Naui OW, Naui AOW, GUE DIRF, IANTD, SSI, Instructors from a few agencies, etc etc and the one thing I've noticed is that they all think that their training regimen is the ONLY way to go. And there are some that only have OW from whatever agency and they think that's all they need. Some of these folks have 100's of dives, and others have only a few. None of them except a few were BAD divers. Some had more experience, some had more confidence, and some had more skill, but they were all good divers in their own right, even though there is a clear difference in the level of training, or the training agency with which they certified. Being a "DIR" diver does not make you a good diver, Being Padi does not make you a bad diver. But there is a clear difference in the level of training. Not better training, just different. So why is it that people from one training group will not dive with people from another training group? I can assure you, it's not because they are not "good divers.

[LCF]

So why is it that people from one training group will not dive with people from another training group?

I think, in fact, this is rare. I've never had anybody refuse to dive with me because of the training I've had, and I've never refused to dive with anyone because of the training THEY'd had.

I am a GUE-trained diver, and cheerfully try to adhere to the protocols of that agency. So is rjack, so is dsteding. Rjack was out there at the recent big buddy dive, taking new divers out on his boat. Steding's in Maui, diving with an IANTD trained diver and instructor. I try to make a point to offer to dive with new divers, no matter who trained them, and one of my recent very pleasant dives was with gcbryan, whose dive philosophy is quite different from mine. Yet we both enjoyed the dive, and want to do it again.

I think all of us develop a circle of dive buddies, which may be bigger or smaller depending on who you are, how much you dive, and how many avenues to contact people you find. And we dive pretty habitually with those people, and less with strangers, just because most of us have a finite amount of dive time (I'm not talking about Bob) and end up spending it with those we know we like to dive and spend time with. Most likely, those people will dive kind of like we do, simply because it makes life easier. But I think true exclusionary behavior is uncommon.

[gcbryan]

I agree with LCF's post above. I think diving is no different than any other aspect of life. When labels are placed on people/groups it only serves to divide (left/right, conservative/liberal,us/them). When you get to know someone the labels usually fall away, communication increases, and not surprisingly you find that all people have more in common than diferences.

Most "good" divers recognize each other regardless of dive philosophies because we still have the same things/concerns in common. How we address them is much less important than the fact that we do address them.

Most people dive with friends and not so much with strangers (other than mentoring situations)and as mentioned above this explains more than exclusion due to training agencies. Maybe the new bumper sticker should be "Become a friend and you're doing it right!"

[Grateful Diver]

So why is it that people from one training group will not dive with people from another training group? I can assure you, it's not because they are not "good divers.

That's a question I've given a lot of thought to over the years ... and I don't think it's "training group" per se. I think it boils down to interests, goals, sometimes shop politics, and circumstances.

People with certain interests and goals tend to gravitate in a particular direction ... and that often leads them to choose similar or the same training groups. And so while it may seem that they're "excluding" others because of their training, in fact what they're really doing is gravitating toward a group that shares their interests and goals ... and has taken training compatible with those interests and goals. And so while those people may allow others outside that group to dive with them on certain occasions ... like Big Buddy dives, where they're really out there to share what they've learned with less experienced divers, and possibly help these new divers decide whether or not they want to follow similar interests and goals ... when it comes time to do what they consider the "big" dives, whether those be recreational or technical, they choose to do them with the people they're most comfortable diving with. Although this can seem "exclusive", what it really boils down to is the same social behavior that humans exert in other aspects of their life.

Sometimes it boils down to shop politics ... people align themselves with dive shops for many reasons, and one of those is to develop a social circle that they can dive with, and can hang out with when they're not diving. But humans are also inherently tribal ... we tend to rationalize our choices by finding reasons why the "other guys" just aren't as good or desireable as we are. Depending on the person and circumstances this can be driven by business interests, social "peer" pressure, or simply ego. It's not necessarily a bad thing, it's just part of human behavior that plays itself out within the circle of divers associated within our chosen dive shop.

Circumstances ... as we grow our interests change, and our choice of who to associate with changes along with it. The people we once spent a lot of time with may not any longer be as desireable to dive with as they once were. When you meet them at a dive site you may ... like an old lover ... say "we really have to get together and dive sometime" ... but you both know that your opportunities for diving are limited, and when you make your next dive plans you're gonna make them with the people who are part of your present circle of friends.

Diving's just a microcosm of other aspects of our lives ... and as with all of them, those we choose to associate with and spend our time with and participate with are going to be driven by who we feel most comfortable being around. It boils down to human nature ... and the limitations of busy lives and limited opportunities ... rather than training or agencies.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[Fishstiq]

I'm probably not smart enough to go in this direction, but I thought I'd give it a go... If I buy a Toyota, and I like it, I will probably buy either another Toyota or a similar vehicle when the time comes. If I buy a Toyota, and I get a lemon, I will probably never buy one again. Getting a good vehicle and developing a loyalty to that brand doesn't mean that Ford or Chevy or Kia are bad cars, it just means you know that a particular brand is to your liking.

I think maybe the same applies to diving. My dive buddy uses similar gear to me, so we can discuss gadgets over after-dive beverages. My buddy enjoys similar u/w activities (photos, critter I.D., crabbing, etc...) to me, so it is easy to decide on a vague dive plan and location fairly quickly. My buddy and I have similar backgrounds, and we are both fairly thick-skinned, so I can be comfortable with saying pretty much whatever without worrying that he will fill out a "Hurt Feelings Report" and submit it to the scuba police. I'm sure other regular buddies are in similar situations. Maybe you are buddies so you have someone at work to discuss diving with. Maybe diving strengthens the relationship you have with a spouse or sibling. Whatever the case, individuals have found something that works for them and they become fairly loyal to that situation. That doesn't mean they won't dive with someone else or take a Daewoo as a rental car, it just means that they prefer their own comfort zone a majority of the time.

[airsix]

Hey! Who pulled the sheet off the elephant! he he he... just kidding, Chris. I'm glad you spoke up. I hope this thread can stay alive a bit longer without losing steam or anybody getting their hackles up. This agency/training route thing is something that has been weighing heavy on me. Really heavy. I thought I had a training roadmap laid out for myself but when I've shared it with people (who aren't following the same path) there has been a pointedly negative response. One person, who I met recently (and who has higher level training than anyone here I know of) flatly said "Be sure you want to do that because if you do you will isolate yourself." That really floored me. I want the best training and skill development I can get, but I do not want to be isolated either.

-Ben

[lamont]

So why is it that people from one training group will not dive with people from another training group?

I discovered after I found a scuba group at work that has a budget so that members get to dive free on the company dime that all it takes for me to dive with a different crowd is comp'ing my boat fees. $80 and i'll recreational dive with anyone. =)

(okay, well maybe there's limits, but i suddenly turn into substantially more of a dive slut than anyone would think is possible with a DIR/GUE diver...)

[ArcticDiver]

Well that's a good point ArcticDiver. Someone once told me that the thumbs up isn't a question, it's an ORDER and it's not open for discussion.
...

Yep, that is standard. But, I've learned that not everyone follows that.

As for the rest of your post: This is a recurring subject on several scuba forums. Bob has made several statements that are right on point. But, in my experience refusing to dive with someone else is much more common than some will acknowledge.

Perhaps, that is a carry over from the biases that seem to be inherent in the human species. Perhaps, it is something else. Whatever, in almost all cases I've been personally aware of refusal to dive with someone else has been irrational. I say "almost" because there have been cases where the refusal has been objectively justified.

Irrational reasons I have personally heard:
"You are too old. I'm afraid you'll get hurt"
"You are too young. I don't want to take responsibility"
"I'm GUE trained. Our rules say don't dive with an unsafe diver. You are not GUE trained so you are unsafe."
"You knocked my dive shop."
"You are too experienced a diver for me"
"Your gear has too many failure points"
"I only dive with DIR divers. Who was your DIR instructor?"

I could go on; but you get the idea.

A rational reason, in my opinion at least, is that we don't speak the same language. I had almost forgotten but once in BC I was paired with a person who did not speak my language, nor me his.

To me the bottom line is that often we take our propensity for bigotry and bias with us no matter where we go. Add to that a bit of Bob's tribalism and some economic interest and there you are.

Me? With the two exceptions I've posted about I'll dive with anybody. Although some times it does bring a bit of humor when a diver tells me: "Lets' dive at xxxxx so I can check you out before we go to a more difficult spot" and I reply: "Wonderful. We don't know each other so lets' check each other out to be sure we are on the same page". Most people understand that diver to diver communication is not simple or standard. So, it takes some time for two strangers, no matter how well trained or experienced to get on the same page. But, some people don't have that understanding.

[CaptnJack]

The number of people I'm comfortable diving with (aka can have fun with) is inversely proportional to depth/exposure. I apply a slightly different standard for cavern/cave dives but the same concept applies. I figure that as I get deeper and deeper my life is increasingly in the hands of my buddy. So in order to still be comfortable (and relax enough to have fun) I try to chose them carefully. And yes as the depth/exposure increases smaller and smaller issues can be deal killers for me. Training, equipment, attitude or just a gut reaction. I applied the same standards/vetting process to rock and ice climbing buddies when I was into that. There weren't any conventional "labels" to apply though.

[BASSMAN]

The only time I was in a situation that would be considdered a "Deal Breaker" is the diver I dove with who's idea of a pre-dive discussion was "If we have to surface for any reason the dive is over!" And then, for the entire dive I had to try to keep up with him as he was tyring to cover as much of the ocean bottom as he could. and then I felt I was doing something wrong and shrugged it off as I was just new.
Not A Fun Dive! Kind of fell in to that last catagory of Bob's. Good one Bob!

A good diver to me is, all of what has allready been said.
But I do see a little bit of= What makes a good buddy?
Mixed with = What makes a good diver?
Just because your a good buddy, does not make you a good diver!
But I think being a good diver makes a great buddy!

And we have alot of great buddies right here on this board!

[Tangfish]

I enjoy diving with buddies who learn to dive and configure their gear in ways that make sense for them, are willing to share info and teachings if you ask them, but never push their ways unto others. People who are overly vocal about having already found "the best way" to do something are less likely to continue learning themselves, imho. My best dive buddies seem to share the common trait of always being up for further improving their skills, gear and thinking about diving. That attitude in general is a good one to have with you both underwater, and on the surface for the after-dive beer.

[Grateful Diver]

I thought I had a training roadmap laid out for myself but when I've shared it with people (who aren't following the same path) there has been a pointedly negative response. One person, who I met recently (and who has higher level training than anyone here I know of) flatly said "Be sure you want to do that because if you do you will isolate yourself." That really floored me. I want the best training and skill development I can get, but I do not want to be isolated either.

-Ben

Sorry to hear that, Ben ... but I'm not surprised.

Unfortunately, it works both ways ... I shake my head in wonder at the "sparring" that goes on between divers ... especially tech divers ... of varying philosophies and wonder what the hell they're thinking.

I thought we were supposed to be doing this for fun ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[Maverick]

I thought I had a training roadmap laid out for myself but when I've shared it with people (who aren't following the same path) there has been a pointedly negative response. One person, who I met recently (and who has higher level training than anyone here I know of) flatly said "Be sure you want to do that because if you do you will isolate yourself." That really floored me. I want the best training and skill development I can get, but I do not want to be isolated either.

-Ben

Sorry to hear that, Ben ... but I'm not surprised.

Unfortunately, it works both ways ... I shake my head in wonder at the "sparring" that goes on between divers ... especially tech divers ... of varying philosophies and wonder what the hell they're thinking.

I thought we were supposed to be doing this for fun ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)