What would I do if.....?

[raptor]

I have never had a issue but I always notice it could be. The article is very good but I still feel that a cam greatly reduce buddy awareness and increases risk. I just wanted to see all your best practices for this kinda dive.

[Jeff Pack]

Raptor, when I dive with a photographer the photographer leads the dive. It doesn't make sense to have one person taking photos while the other is swimming off expecting to be followed. My job is to stick to the photographer and not wander off. I stay close enough that I can flash my light beam across their field of vision if I need their attention. I try to stay where I can be seen (without being in the way) so they can focus more attention on their photography subject. I'll also state that the photographers I dive with are like-minded team divers. I've never had a problem diving with a photographer and quite like it actually. They're the only people who slow down and look at detail enough to suit my taste.

Ben

Same plan I laid with scubie for this weekend

[kitsapdiver]

Thinking through some of these scenerios has provided me with an answer I didn't have while in my cave class. Jim Wyatt, my cave instructor, asked why I inflated my wing from my right post, and drysuit from the left post.

Jim inflates his wing from his left post and drysuit from the right post, and his reasoning makes sense for the cave diving situation. He feels that he is on his inflator for his wing more than he is on his inflator for his drysuit, and if he were to have a left post roll off he might notice it earlier when using the wing for inflation, and that is a better situation to find the left post roll off than to donate the long hose, and switch to a non-working bungeed back up (the scenerio BDub loves to hit people with).

Well thinking about how I would deal with a power inflator gone crazy would be to swim downward, dumping from the butt dump with my left hand, and switching to my bungeed back up and then shutting down my right post with my right hand. Something I couldn't do if my dump, and valve were on the same side. If my drysuit inflator were to go arry on a shallow dive my drysuit would vent when I was operating the left post anyways. If I had argon I can still vent the suit and shut down the argon bottle at the same time.

[airsix]

Well thinking about how I would deal with a power inflator gone crazy would be to swim downward, dumping from the butt dump with my left hand, and switching to my bungeed back up and then shutting down my right post with my right hand.

Why shut down vs. just reaching across with your right hand and popping the LP hose off the inflator?

[kitsapdiver]

Well thinking about how I would deal with a power inflator gone crazy would be to swim downward, dumping from the butt dump with my left hand, and switching to my bungeed back up and then shutting down my right post with my right hand.

Why shut down vs. just reaching across with your right hand and popping the LP hose off the inflator?

I've never practiced it it my big thick gloves. I suspect it's a two hand operation, and that means I'm not dumping at the same time. I am confident in my ability to shut down my right post. Next time I'm out in some shallow water screwing around I'll practice popping it off underwater. Woth practicing so I know what I would I do.

[defied]

Once you get practiced, you can pop it off with only one hand.

...uuuhhh.... The inflator QD.

D

[BDub]

Well thinking about how I would deal with a power inflator gone crazy would be to swim downward, dumping from the butt dump with my left hand, and switching to my bungeed back up and then shutting down my right post with my right hand.

Why shut down vs. just reaching across with your right hand and popping the LP hose off the inflator?

I think either way works, as long as it gets the job done.

Doing it in the way Austin describes allows you to dump gas and kick down while cutting off the gas to the inflator

[ArcticDiver]

I've really enjoyed this thread. The topic is far from a new one. But it is one that needs to be resurected from time to time. I do hope to be back in the water this summer so I've really paid attention to some of the problems and associated solutions.

Still, all this is really little more than wet voyeurism without an overall, continuing structure for addressing the What If questions. It also is a matter of diving philosophy. In my earlier post I tried to lay out something general as a framework. With I could take credit for it but I can't. It comes straight from several tomes on safety in other industries.

The need to be totally self-sufficent has been hammered home to me on several occasions. Sure it is nice to be diving with others, it is more fun. It is nice to be diving with people who have been trained as team divers. That is even more fun. But, in the end no one has a greater vested interest in a person's health than the person themselves. Plus, although the advantages of having someone else along have been touted each of us must realize there are also disadvantages. There are twice as many brains, regulators, and other kit to malfunction.

Digression:

The question was asked about following a person bolting to the surface. The answer is found both in Leadership 101 and in the Flight Attendant Briefing on commercial airlines. Take care of yourself first or you can't take care of anyone else. Or, in emergency services, Don't make another casualty that needs taking care of.

Almost time to start getting the details together for recurrency.

[ArcticDiver]

Raptor, when I dive with a photographer the photographer leads the dive. It doesn't make sense to have one person taking photos while the other is swimming off expecting to be followed. My job is to stick to the photographer and not wander off. I stay close enough that I can flash my light beam across their field of vision if I need their attention. I try to stay where I can be seen (without being in the way) so they can focus more attention on their photography subject. I'll also state that the photographers I dive with are like-minded team divers. I've never had a problem diving with a photographer and quite like it actually. They're the only people who slow down and look at detail enough to suit my taste. Ben

+1++++

My most frequent complaint, people swim too bloody fast.

[Joshua Smith]

Well thinking about how I would deal with a power inflator gone crazy would be to swim downward, dumping from the butt dump with my left hand, and switching to my bungeed back up and then shutting down my right post with my right hand.

Why shut down vs. just reaching across with your right hand and popping the LP hose off the inflator?

I've never practiced it it my big thick gloves. I suspect it's a two hand operation, and that means I'm not dumping at the same time. I am confident in my ability to shut down my right post. Next time I'm out in some shallow water screwing around I'll practice popping it off underwater. Woth practicing so I know what I would I do.

Deep Sea Supply makes these nifty little deals called "hose hats." They fit over the ends of LP hoses and make it super easy to disconnect, even in big thick gloves. And they're cheap. I have them on my wing and drysuit connects, and all the whips on my bailout bottles.

[lamont]

What would you do if you bit through your mouthpiece?
Spit out the loose pieces? If it is impractical to continue using, signal team while switching to the backup that hangs under my chin. Sign "this reg is screwed" and clip it off. Sign "swim to exit".
What would you do if the exhaust valve on your reg let water into your mouth?
Signal team. Switch to backup under chin. Sign "this reg is screwed. HOLD." See if I can get the exhaust valve to seat and resume using if successful. If not, clip it off and sign "swim to exit".
What would you do if your mouthpiece fell off?
Signal team while switching to backup under chin. Clip off primary and sign "swim to exit."

One other option to note in all these water-in-the-mouth scenarios is that you've still got a regulator delivering gas and in OW1 everyone should have learned to breathe off a free flowing reg, so you can hit the purge and still breathe. I've had that happen to me twice, and both times forgot about that option (in one case my other reg was shutdown during a valve drill as well, so it might have been handy...)

What would you do if your LP inflator fell off?
Signal team. Sign "Hold. Inflator screwed". Reattach it. Test it. Communicate. Resume dive.

I was thinking the mechanism itself, not just the LP hose popping off the inflator. That ends a dive in my book since your wing no longer has integrity, unless you've got zipties available and can manage to repair it underwater... Happened to me once at the surface, so exiting the dive completely seemed better than CF'ing with it while floating around...

There's also the elbow popping off as well...

What would you do if your drysuit seemed to be dumping poorly?
Communicate. Discontinue the dive. Ascend cautiously and S-L-O-W-L-Y to stay ahead of expansion. Flood a glove and vent a wrist if necessary.

<whisper>
Might wanna check if your dump valve is fully open first...
</whisper>

And yeah a few of those were 'trick questions' in that the answer should really be prevention...

[airsix]

Good calls. I did not read carefully enough. I was visualizing LP hose popped off inflator. I agree, if the inflator comes off the corrugated hose, or the corrugated hose comes off the elbow that's a dangerous situation and the dive is over immediately. Regarding suit venting: I always check/adjust my exhaust valve before descent, at max depth, before ascent, and then close it upon surfacing. It doesn't count unless I said I did it and I didn't say I did, so I concede to missing that one for failure to show my work. ; )

Fun thread and thanks for letting me play.

[renoun]

defied, that was way too funny.

How do you get the air out of the feet of your dry suit? Flood it.

I've tried that strategy

Then there is always the knife solution he suggested for other problems...

I've got lots of other thoughts but the last few days have been too busy to post them. Keep the thread going and I'll get around to posting eventually.

[Grateful Diver]

Deep Sea Supply makes these nifty little deals called "hose hats." They fit over the ends of LP hoses and make it super easy to disconnect, even in big thick gloves. And they're cheap. I have them on my wing and drysuit connects, and all the whips on my bailout bottles.

... and if anybody wants one, I've got a baggie's worth that Tobin gave me as free samples when I toured his facility a few years back ... they're sitting in my save-a-dive kit, so just hit me up for one next time you see me ...

... Bob

[scubnewb]

I was looking at those wondering how well they actually work...

Deep Sea Supply makes these nifty little deals called "hose hats." They fit over the ends of LP hoses and make it super easy to disconnect, even in big thick gloves. And they're cheap. I have them on my wing and drysuit connects, and all the whips on my bailout bottles.

... and if anybody wants one, I've got a baggie's worth that Tobin gave me as free samples when I toured his facility a few years back ... they're sitting in my save-a-dive kit, so just hit me up for one next time you see me ...

... Bob

[Nwbrewer]

I was looking at those wondering how well they actually work...

Quite well...

[CaptnJack]

Why shut down vs. just reaching across with your right hand and popping the LP hose off the inflator?

This almost always doesn't work for a disasterous big inflator leak. The slow ones, sure just pop it off. If its a big leak you need to kick down or you will end up on the surface. There was a huge debate over this about 5-6 years ago after exactly this scenario happened in OW off Monterey. I forget the diver involved.

Basically they were doing a deco dive with 40+mins of midwater deco to complete.
They had been breathing their long hose the whole dive but the IP had failed (right post).
They switched to deco gas at 70ft.
Clipped off their primary.
For whatever reason this diver has a habit of detuning their primary when it was clipped off. They may have been scootering to stay with an upline for instance.
The IP on their right reg went through the roof.
Instead of dumping through the second stage the reg dumped into the power inflator.
The diver went to disconnect.
300psi or whatever outrageous IP behind a LP nipple its not coming apart fast. He's and vertical messing with it, can't kick down, power inflators don't dump as fast as butt dumps either.
He ended up on the surface, badly bent but survived.
The reason there was a huge rowe over this was because the diver had done what the agency prescribed method was (disconnecting) vs what their instructor had actually taught them (kicking down while shutting off the post).

You are all welcome to your own ways of dealing with this scenario. For me the "correct" answer in doubles with a deco obligation is to turn off the right post while kicking down like a madman and dumping from the butt dump. In a single I'll do my best to flair, disconnect, and exhale knowing that on my no deco dives the chances of me getting badly bent from ending up on the surface are slight.

[airsix]

I was looking at those wondering how well they actually work...

I use one and keep a spare in my box. They help a lot when wearing gloves and working with a pressurized hose.

[scubnewb]

I am gonna have to get my hands on them then.

I was looking at those wondering how well they actually work...

I use one and keep a spare in my box. They help a lot when wearing gloves and working with a pressurized hose.

[BDub]

Why shut down vs. just reaching across with your right hand and popping the LP hose off the inflator?

This almost always doesn't work for a disasterous big inflator leak. The slow ones, sure just pop it off. If its a big leak you need to kick down or you will end up on the surface. There was a huge debate over this about 5-6 years ago after exactly this scenario happened in OW off Monterey. I forget the diver involved.

Basically they were doing a deco dive with 40+mins of midwater deco to complete.
They had been breathing their long hose the whole dive but the IP had failed (right post).
They switched to deco gas at 70ft.
Clipped off their primary.
For whatever reason this diver has a habit of detuning their primary when it was clipped off. They may have been scootering to stay with an upline for instance.
The IP on their right reg went through the roof.
Instead of dumping through the second stage the reg dumped into the power inflator.
The diver went to disconnect.
300psi or whatever outrageous IP behind a LP nipple its not coming apart fast. He's and vertical messing with it, can't kick down, power inflators don't dump as fast as butt dumps either.
He ended up on the surface, badly bent but survived.
The reason there was a huge rowe over this was because the diver had done what the agency prescribed method was (disconnecting) vs what their instructor had actually taught them (kicking down while shutting off the post).

You are all welcome to your own ways of dealing with this scenario. For me the "correct" answer in doubles with a deco obligation is to turn off the right post while kicking down like a madman and dumping from the butt dump. In a single I'll do my best to flair, disconnect, and exhale knowing that on my no deco dives the chances of me getting badly bent from ending up on the surface are slight.

Perfect explanation, Richard. Thanks for posting that. I wanted to yesterday, but just didn't have the time, then forgot about it.

This specific incident is also the reason many tech classes have this failure.

[kitsapdiver]

Perfect explanation, Richard. Thanks for posting that. I wanted to yesterday, but just didn't have the time, then forgot about it.

This specific incident is also the reason many tech classes have this failure.

This is a hard one to throw in a Tech Class. In the "failures" portion of the Tech2 class I remember you throwing it at us, at the beginning of a dive in 10fsw. I'm sure you did it early because you didn't want failure to mean that we were popping up from 50 fsw or so, but I also remember not getting it under control. You were just happy that it was the butt dump and not the power inflator that we went for.

I think it would be worthwhile to go get someone I trusted to throw this failure at me in 15-20 feet of water.

In the case Richard talks about it sounds like the diver was still on the intermediate stops between 70 and 30 feet. If that's the case it seems like recovery is possible, but anyway you cut it there is going to be some "response time" and you're going to lose some depth. It seems like on a 20 or 10 foot stop reaction time may just not be fast enough to recover.

Although I guess if you're in a scenerio where you're at 20 fsw and this happens you either A.) dont have a lot of deco obligation left, or B.) You have a lot of weight (bottom stages, deco bottles, argon, scooter etc. and it's going to take more gas to get you corking and that will give you more time to respond.

[airsix]

Thanks, Guys. I missed Richard's post but just got caught up. Your reasoning makes sense. My personal plan as I stated was swim down while dumping the butt dump with left hand and reach across to disconnect LP hose with right hand simultaneously. I always figured I could do that faster than shutting down a valve but I had never considered a regulator with runaway IP making hose-disconnect impractical. I also hadn't thought about managing all this and a scooter too. I love having you guys around to remind me that there are usually things I've overlooked.

Ben

[Scubie Doo]

I have never had a issue but I always notice it could be. The article is very good but I still feel that a cam greatly reduce buddy awareness and increases risk. I just wanted to see all your best practices for this kinda dive.

As a diver who enjoys taking pictures, I could not agree more. I try to be a good buddy first and photographer second. I will say that eye contact does not mean awareness though. I have had non-photography buddies say, you only checked in on me a couple times. But when we get to the surface they see the 10-15 shots I took of them swimming around. Just because someone doesn't see me check on them does not mean I am not checking.

I will admit that when locked into a subject, my awareness is affected. But the first thing I do after a shot it check out my buddy to make sure they are 1) safe and 2) having fun. With that said, I have been left alone several times while someone points out something to photograph and then leaves me.

In Florida, I was the only person with a camera on a dive boat. The Divemaster pointed out a turtle in a cove and singled for a photo. I went down and took 3-4 shots making sure I gave the turtle plenty of space, it took me a little time for the pictures. When I swam back up the ledge, everyone was gone. I preceded to finish dive alone, conduct my safety stop mid-water with no sight of the bottom and surfaced to 6-8 swells. The dive boat was a small dot on the horizon. I blew up my SMB and prayed to God they would see me. Ultimately they did and I let the Divemaster have it :angry: My point is that, camera or not, divers must be aware of their surroundings and buddy responsibilities or dive solo (which is perfectly fine too). BTW, I was buddied up prior to dropping in, my buddies said, I didn't notice you were gone until we did our safety stop... Nice.

Great thread, I have really enjoyed the dialogue. It really makes me think about improving my diving and buddy skills. Thank you!!!

[lamont]

Why shut down vs. just reaching across with your right hand and popping the LP hose off the inflator?

This almost always doesn't work for a disasterous big inflator leak. The slow ones, sure just pop it off. If its a big leak you need to kick down or you will end up on the surface. There was a huge debate over this about 5-6 years ago after exactly this scenario happened in OW off Monterey. I forget the diver involved.

Basically they were doing a deco dive with 40+mins of midwater deco to complete.
They had been breathing their long hose the whole dive but the IP had failed (right post).
They switched to deco gas at 70ft.
Clipped off their primary.
For whatever reason this diver has a habit of detuning their primary when it was clipped off. They may have been scootering to stay with an upline for instance.
The IP on their right reg went through the roof.
Instead of dumping through the second stage the reg dumped into the power inflator.
The diver went to disconnect.
300psi or whatever outrageous IP behind a LP nipple its not coming apart fast. He's and vertical messing with it, can't kick down, power inflators don't dump as fast as butt dumps either.
He ended up on the surface, badly bent but survived.
The reason there was a huge rowe over this was because the diver had done what the agency prescribed method was (disconnecting) vs what their instructor had actually taught them (kicking down while shutting off the post).

You are all welcome to your own ways of dealing with this scenario. For me the "correct" answer in doubles with a deco obligation is to turn off the right post while kicking down like a madman and dumping from the butt dump. In a single I'll do my best to flair, disconnect, and exhale knowing that on my no deco dives the chances of me getting badly bent from ending up on the surface are slight.

Pete Gelbman...

From http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gavinscooters/message/711:

As I watched John fiddling with the bag, I suddenly heard some gas
leaking somewhere fairly loudly. Sound was coming from front of my
body and my first thought was one of my second stages was free-
flowing, so I looked over my clipped-off primary, my necklace, then
my stages. I started losing my buoyancy and suddenly I realized the
sound was my wing inflater going crazy. I tried unhooking the LP hose
but couldn't get it off - while wrestling with it, I looked over at
John to get his attention but I was already a few feet above him. I
remember cursing myself for turning off my light.

From above John I reached over to try to yank his SMB line to get his
attention but at this point I was ascending really fast. I reached
back with right hand to turn off right post and back with my left
hand to release my rear dump. The wing was so full that the dump
valve was crushed into my argon reg assembly, although I could touch
it I couldn't get my fingers on the string to dump it. While I was
struggling with that I couldn't reach my right valve well enough to
turn it off. At this point I was in a total out-of control ascent,
heads-down, feet full of gas and just as I was was about to
somersault to dump my suit I sensed myself screaming through ambient
light and realized I was totally screwed. I managed to flare and
exhale, and then it was over - one minute I'm enjoying a school of
blue rockfish, next I'm floating alone on the surface about 30' away
from the boat.

[...]

The reason I'm writing this report is to hopefully educate folks
about this failure mode. Escapade crew says that when they got my
gear on the boat my wing was auto-inflating faster than if you press
the button. I took a look at my right post reg last night - its
screwed, IP gauge pegs at 300+ psi. Looks like it was probably
creeping and after switching to my deco bottle and no longer
relieving the pressure by breathing from the reg, it blew out into my
wing. The recovery mode that we learned from AG a few years ago has
you simultaneously shutdown right post and vent rear wing dump with
left. Delia has a description of her training experience on this
issue in her T1 report on the BAUE website. I use my rear dump
regularly on all dives and can normally reach my valves with no
trouble. I've practiced the procedure several times on fun dives and
previously considered myself proficient at it. Unfortunately, when
the real thing happened it just didn't work out and my own
inexperience did me in. In my case there were no bubbles from my
right post itself, so I didn't immediately recognize that the first
stage had failed. Unfortunately it took me too long to figure out
exactly what was going on and when I did, I didn't fix it quickly
enough.

While the right-post shutdown & left rear dump move may be possible
for some, I wasn't able to pull it off. With the benefit of
hindsight, it seems almost crazy to suggest this procedure. On a tech
dive with heavy doubles and stages, in runaway ascent situation the
very last thing you want to do is put yourself in a slightly heads
down position, trying to pat your belly and scratch your head at the
same time. Sometime, somewhere, George said that the only true way
out of this scenario is to simply pinch off the LP inflater hose.
Looking back at the event, I certainly wished I paid more attention
to this and thought about this failure scenario more thoroughly on my
own.

[...]

Cold water complicates everything. Many of us have probably dealt
with the fairly common leaky inflater by unhooking our LP hose. I
remember actually thinking to myself once "I hope I never have to do
this in a hurry". On a runaway ascent its a lost cause.

After that, however, JJ and Bob tested the protocol of going head down and swimming while dumping out the rear dump and later in 2005 Bob was teaching us to go head down and dump out the rear dump -- teaching that the rear dump would dump faster than the LP inflator would add -- and demo'd that on several students. We also practiced it after the course periodically. So it was definitely GUE protocol less than a year after that to go head down and dump. I remember being a bit surprised at that given what went down on gavinscooters...

Not certain where things stand now...

[CaptnJack]

After that, however, JJ and Bob tested the protocol of going head down and swimming while dumping out the rear dump and later in 2005 Bob was teaching us to go head down and dump out the rear dump -- teaching that the rear dump would dump faster than the LP inflator would add -- and demo'd that on several students. We also practiced it after the course periodically. So it was definitely GUE protocol less than a year after that to go head down and dump. I remember being a bit surprised at that given what went down on gavinscooters...

Not certain where things stand now...

Ok that was partly aligned with what I recalled. I don't remember the rest of that thread and searching gavinscooterslist is not my idea of fun. But I know it was a bigtime mudslinging session. A blast from the past for sure.

You do have to catch it soon, by the time Pete looked at all his stages and regs it was too late. I have managed to pull this off in <20ft of water even when caught offguard, but I did have the C2 can buoy chain to help visually. I have also tried the "disconnect" strategy and that's an epic fail everytime. By the time you realize you are going up you have to overdump gas to even slow your ascent and go down at all. Kicking is the only non-BC way to slow or partially arrest your ascent. Of course there's a point of no return with that too, about when your boots pop off.

For whatever reason suit inflators almost never seen to let go and have this issue. Slow leaks yes, rapid failure no. Garrett Weinberg's death being a possible exception, although at the time that was blamed on his deflate valve and undergarment by some.