Northwest Dive Club

Been watching a bunch of youtube clips and trying to figure out this "frog kick" thing (I have this strange desire to stir up less crud from the bottom...), and I just have to ask - is the frog kick as uncomfortable as it looks? Every time I watch a vid, it looks like it's putting a lot of strain on the ankles to twist the feet into the right angle to provide thrust.

One other factor that makes me leery of using it is the always-bent knees. I have one leg that is prone to cramping up after having had a couple of ACL repair/replace surgeries, and it looks to me like a recipe for trouble in my own personal scenario (I'm not saying anything about anyone else!).

Thoughts? Or should I just lie across the hood of my car on Sunday with my legs in the air and try it out while y'all expert types laff yer kiesters off and critique my style (or lack thereof)?

Jim

Frog kicking is not hard on the ACL at all. It does not stress the knee fore-aft. You might be a little sore on the medial side of the knee however. Most people don't twist their ankle to an uncomfortable degree, certainly not 90deg. Maybe 25-50degrees from flat. I know its "just" kicking, but video feedback from an instructor can fix alot of kick issues and/or really accelerate your learning curve while keeping you injury/strain free.

I don't think the dry practice is all that useful. You can do it, it just doesn't translate into good weighless kicking for whatever reason.

Another anti silting kick is the bent knee flutter kick

I find it much more comfortable and less effort. In low current situations I frequently frog kick mostly from the ankles. I've never felt strain on my knees.

You'd think that keeping your legs bent and your feet up in the air would be hard on the hamstrings, and if you do it on a bench on land, it can be. But underwater, your legs weigh very little, and it requires almost no effort at all to maintain the bent knee position. (It requires a lot more effort to keep the straight line from shoulder to knee, which is done with the buttock muscles.)

Frog kicking is such an easy kick that those of us who take it up often give up all other forms of kicking, which is not good; there are circumstances, like swimming into flow or current, where the frog kick is not the best choice, and if you've done nothing else for years, switching kicks is not an easy thing.

When I started out with trying to be a non-silter, I began with the flat posture, bent knee, and a very small flutter kick from the ankles. I didn't go anywhere very fast, but I rarely want to. The real mod flutter, from the knees, gives more thrust but takes more discipline to keep the hips straight.

Frog kicking was one of the very first things I wanted to master as I didn't want to be "that guy". MZ even has some footage of me when I was under 50 dives where I was roostertailing all over the place.
Good idea to look at video to get this idea but the best way that I found to get it was to dive with people that do it. Following behind and applying what I was seeing was the most effective way that I found to learn. At first it really doesnt seem natural at all, and the physics just weren't making sense. This is the same with the reverse kick which I found to be most useful in photography and diving reefs that you dont want to slam into. For me it was one dive where I was like "Oh damn I get it now!"

I [sarcasm]also think that you lying on your hood at the club dive so that everyone can help you is a great idea!!!![/sarcasm]

Unless someone has a physical injury or some other limitation I don't think it's any harder than any other kick.

Like with anything, if you haven't done it before, the new motion feels a bit strange at first and uses muscles you don't use much. Do it for awhile and you'll feel funny kicking any other way.

thanks all. sounds like it might be worth a try on Sunday, and maybe I can find a buddy willing to take a vid of my attempts with my camera. give me something to look at later...

The cramps tend to appear more often when the foot is extended and toes pointed - a position where the feet can be kept bent instead might be enough to keep the hamstrings stretched out and reduce it...

Yes and yes, frog kicks are awesome. If you dive blade fins, you are doing yourself a disservice not learning this wonderful technique . The most useful part of frog kicking to me, are the easy modifications that help your control underwater. Meaning, I can now "helicopter" or turn from side to side...rather "on-a-dime" much easier (think lazy Susan type motion). Also, it transitioned me into learning the back kick fairly quickly. Other than not silting up dive sites, I have to say being able to go backwards for any distance is awesome, and you will be the envy of all your dive buddies .

Good luck, and have fun
Jacob

The frog kick after you get the hang of it put less stress on your knees and ankles. Trust me I had knee surgery to reconnect my knee cap to the tendon after a different sporting accident.

Roxndox, if you want to work on your frog kick at the club dive, I'd be happy to give you a hand, and video for you. I have a powerful passion for passing along non-silting techniques to other divers

+1

something I have found that helps me from getting sore is focusing more on adducting your calves with both feet in a 45 degree eversion and not focusing so much on plantar-flexion on the foot. Think of it as "clapping" the bottoms of your feet together. Practicing this on the floor just gave me sore junk and lessened my self image =/ haha.

CaptnJack wrote:Frog kicking is not hard on the ACL at all. It does not stress the knee fore-aft. You might be a little sore on the medial side of the knee however. Most people don't twist their ankle to an uncomfortable degree, certainly not 90deg. Maybe 25-50degrees from flat. I know its "just" kicking, but video feedback from an instructor can fix alot of kick issues and/or really accelerate your learning curve while keeping you injury/strain free.

I don't think the dry practice is all that useful. You can do it, it just doesn't translate into good weighless kicking for whatever reason.

LCF wrote:Roxndox, if you want to work on your frog kick at the club dive, I'd be happy to give you a hand, and video for you. I have a powerful passion for passing along non-silting techniques to other divers

Thanks, Lynne - I'd appreciate it. :-) I think my trim and weighting ought to be a little better than the last club dive too...

SeanKylgod wrote:something I have found that helps me from getting sore is focusing more on adducting your calves with both feet in a 45 degree eversion and not focusing so much on plantar-flexion on the foot. Think of it as "clapping" the bottoms of your feet together. Practicing this on the floor just gave me sore junk and lessened my self image =/ haha.

Heh - tried demo'ing what a frog kick looks like to my (nonswimmer) wife lying on the bed last night, and while my junk's OK I did end up buried under two very curious Goldens wanting to know what was happening... Amusing for her... I like the concept of clapping the feet - easy to picture (my brain's really happy with "easy' whenever possible!).

Jim

RoxnDox wrote: Heh - tried demo'ing what a frog kick looks like to my (nonswimmer) wife lying on the bed last night, and while my junk's OK I did end up buried under two very curious Goldens wanting to know what was happening... Amusing for her... I like the concept of clapping the feet - easy to picture (my brain's really happy with "easy' whenever possible!).

Jim

Alexitt wrote:

RoxnDox wrote: Heh - tried demo'ing what a frog kick looks like to my (nonswimmer) wife lying on the bed last night, and while my junk's OK I did end up buried under two very curious Goldens wanting to know what was happening... Amusing for her... I like the concept of clapping the feet - easy to picture (my brain's really happy with "easy' whenever possible!).

Jim

Yeah yeah... You only laugh like that because you know those two beasties...

Still planning to come down tomorrow for the festivities?

Jim

Yep, Planning to get one of Dusty's lights... in addition to the general BS'ing...

I'm still planning to be there with camera in hand, but as I said on the other thread, if the wind doesn't die, I'm staying home. I don't like Redondo in a high wind one little bit.

LCF wrote:I'm still planning to be there with camera in hand, but as I said on the other thread, if the wind doesn't die, I'm staying home. I don't like Redondo in a high wind one little bit.

No problemo - "Semper Gumby" is my philosophy If I end up just poking around taking practice pictures of the elusive wild starfish, that's OK too

Jim