Edmonds Oil Dock...How Deep Does it Go?

Seth T. · Post by **Seth T.** » Sun Oct 21, 2007 10:11 pm

Thanks Calvin.

Since I'm allegedly avoiding the gas management topic here's the math:

I personally breath 16.7 PSIG per ATA per minute. Thus at 5 ATA (132 FSW) I'm buring through 83.5 PSIG per minute. Given an arrival PSIG of 2500 and a departure of 1500 PSIG, my personal bottom time for 1000 PSIG at 5 ATA is 11.97 minutes. (VMac breathes even better than I, so we use my times since they're shorter.) That is twice the no deco time (which we did NOT break) and PLENTY of time in case of an emergency.

How 'bout them apples?

mattwave · Post by **mattwave** » Sun Oct 21, 2007 10:33 pm

Calvin wrote:
I'm going to delete this entire thread tomorrow, after everyone gets their final 2 cents in, since this dick swinging/preachfest isn't the type of thing that I want representing NWDC.

Before you delete this thread, I am half Italian - Yo Vinney how's it hangn?

Aquanautchuck · Post by **Aquanautchuck** » Sun Oct 21, 2007 10:51 pm

[quote="

The reason I am telling you all about this dive is b/c many of us here have done dives that go beyond what most books consider as advisable to do, but we don't post about them for fear that some newbie will come here and think it's okay to do a dive like that after being in the water a handful of times. That is why I'm now asking Seth and others not to post about dives that you think may be of borderline safety standards, because new divers are prone to reading things on the internet and then going to do them on their own.

No need for dick swinging here. Many of the dives I've reported on have been pretty challenging dives - some of them were profiles that some here might not view as "proper" - but if that's the case I just post the photos and say how good the fish tacos were afterward; I don't throw it in the faces of people who respect safety and diving within the limits of the training that they subscribe to.

I'm sure I'm not the only diver here who has gone beyond PADI, SSI, NAUI, etc. standards - but the point is that when I do, my buddies and I understand and accept the risks - and do not do anything to encourage others who we don't know to follow suit. Get it?

I'm going to delete this entire thread tomorrow, after everyone gets their final 2 cents in, since this dick swinging/preachfest isn't the type of thing that I want representing NWDC.[/quote]

Thanks Calvin. I like most experienced divers don't post some dives because of the "Young ins" newer divers. I remember being a newbie and soaking up everything the divers I looked up to said. And incorrectly thinking I could do that. Then I learned you have to have the knowledge, training and experience to do what they do.

Pez7378 · Post by **Pez7378** » Sun Oct 21, 2007 11:23 pm

Sorry Calvin. This topic is cooked.

And now back to our regularly scheduled program.........

Who wants to go diving?? :wav:

jackieg · Post by **jackieg** » Sun Oct 21, 2007 11:32 pm

Thanks, Calvin. Well said, and long overdue in this thread anyway..

jackie

Tangfish · Post by **Tangfish** » Sun Oct 21, 2007 11:36 pm

Pez7378 wrote:
Who wants to go diving?? :wav:

I do!

Grateful Diver · Post by **Grateful Diver** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 5:31 am

Seth T. wrote:So, since everyone is blasting us for doing it the wrong way, why don't you tell us the RIGHT way? If we had a pony bottle, would that satisify everyone?

Kudos, Seth, for asking the right question. My simple answer is to plan for a gas loss scenario like the one that happened during our dive the other day ... where one of you loses your gas supply and you both have to come to the surface sharing the other person's air. Especially with winter coming and the water turning colder, free-flows are always a possibility around here.

A pony bottle would help ... but I think Gray put it best. You don't have to blindly follow the rules, but you should at least know what the rules are. If you're interested, I can send you my Gas Management handout. It explains some things that are worth knowing. Or make it a point to come to the next seminar ... they're free, and I'd welcome the chance to answer your questions in person.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

dsteding · Post by **dsteding** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 6:51 am

Seth T. wrote:Thanks Calvin.

Since I'm allegedly avoiding the gas management topic here's the math:

I personally breath 16.7 PSIG per ATA per minute. Thus at 5 ATA (132 FSW) I'm buring through 83.5 PSIG per minute. Given an arrival PSIG of 2500 and a departure of 1500 PSIG, my personal bottom time for 1000 PSIG at 5 ATA is 11.97 minutes. (VMac breathes even better than I, so we use my times since they're shorter.) That is twice the no deco time (which we did NOT break) and PLENTY of time in case of an emergency.

How 'bout them apples?

A couple points and then I'm done. Earlier in this thread, you said you'd leave at 2000 psi. So, looks like the gas plan got more aggressive.

At 1500 psi on an AL80 you have 38 cubic feet of gas.

Let's say you are there, just about to head up, and your buddy experiences a free flow. He swims over to you, gets on your octo and you shut off his tank. This takes a minute and is a bit stressful. Your breathing goes up a bit, to about 1 cubic feet per minute per ATA. That blows through 10 cubic feet of gas.

28 cubic feet.

You two get things sorted out and it is time to go. 30 feet per minute from 130-70 feet. Two minutes, average of 100 feet. Another 16 cubic feet. You are now at 70 feet with ~600 psi in your tank. Your buddy's is useless, a freeflow at 130 will blow through 30 cubic feet pretty damn fast.

By your own calculations, you've been on the bottom for 12 minutes (note that PADI's own tables say 10 minutes is the NDL here). A safety stop is probably a good idea.

But, I get ahead of myself. 70 feet. 12 cubic feet of gas is where we are at. Another 30 fpm ascent to 15 feet. Call it 2 minutes, call it an average of 50 feet. You two are still a bit stressed. 10 cubic feet of gas.

You are basically empty at 15 feet. No stop, it is CESA time.

Note that the above is a fairly aggressive ascent rate. 30 fpm is damn fast, try it some time. If you slow down at the beginning and do say, 15 fpm, you double your time deep. That will double your gas usage, and under this scenario, you run out of gas somewhere around 80 feet.

Under either scenario, there is at best no room for error, and you certainly aren't getting back to shore with 500 psi in your tank.

This isn't about DIR. This isn't about kool-aid. I also apologize to Calvin for getting a bit abrupt about all this, but I agree with him that newbies don't need to be reading about these dives.

How I would do the dive is a bit irrelevant, because it is very conservative (and wouldn't be done on air). But, I'd start by reserving at least 60 cubic feet of gas to get back to the surface . . .

Seth T. · Post by **Seth T.** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 7:18 am

Grateful Diver wrote: If you're interested, I can send you my Gas Management handout. It explains some things that are worth knowing. Or make it a point to come to the next seminar ... they're free, and I'd welcome the chance to answer your questions in person.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I"m always interested in learning. Send it over Bob!

Seth T. · Post by **Seth T.** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 7:32 am

Calvin wrote:
Seth T., I have to address you individually b/c you're at the center of this soap opera. I know damn well what a "proper" dive is, as in, one that falls under the teachings we all learn in dive classes. I personally don't think that diving to 132' on an AL80 is a death-wish or a heinous crime. In fact, I myself have been to 175' on an AL80 that sat out in the tropical sun for hours, probably with an o-ring that was of typical Malaysian standard (very poor). The dive lasted 50 minutes. Was I diving within PADI guidelines? No. Was I diving within the limits of my experience and skill at the time? Yes. Do I expect anyone else to do this, simply because I did? No. Could something have gone wrong? Yes. Do things only go wrong when you're doing dives beyond the limits of what PADI teaches you? No. The funnies thing is, I was in more danger eating the food in some places and crossing the street in others in that country, than I ever was during any of the 50 or so dives I did there.

Finally, someone that's NOT here to blast me. Sure seems like this is pick on Seth day. Seriously, most of you haven't even met me, much less dove with me; and now suddenly you're experts on me saying that I'm foolish and even refusing to dive with me. Because of ONE dive that was within rec limits?

Next time I'm going to 132 FSW with a self contained ascent bottle!

It's funny how not a single one of you vastly more experienced divers said one word about Calvin's dive.... Hypocrites.

Grateful Diver · Post by **Grateful Diver** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 7:32 am

PM sent .... really glad we could turn this conversation in a more constructive direction ...

... Bob (Grateful ...)

Grateful Diver · Post by **Grateful Diver** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 7:39 am

Seth T wrote: It's funny how not a single one of you vastly more experienced divers said one word about Calvin's dive.... Hypocrites.

Well ... maybe not ...

I got the impression from Calvin's message that he was saying that's not the sort of discussion he wants on this board ... and I think most of us were trying to respect his wishes.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Seth T. · Post by **Seth T.** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 7:46 am

Grateful Diver wrote: I got the impression from Calvin's message that he was saying that's not the sort of discussion he wants on this board ... and I think most of us were trying to respect his wishes.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I would agree. Sausage-fests piss me off.

Pez7378 · Post by **Pez7378** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 8:34 am

Seth T. wrote:Seriously, most of you haven't even met me, much less dove with me

True Dat! Let's go diving.

Seth T. wrote:Sausage-fests piss me off.

So do Rat fish!!

Seth T. · Post by **Seth T.** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 8:38 am

Pez7378 wrote:
Seth T. wrote:Seriously, most of you haven't even met me, much less dove with me
True Dat! Let's go diving.

I'm totally open this week in the afternoons. When are you available?

Grateful Diver · Post by **Grateful Diver** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 9:15 am

Now we're talkin' ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Pez7378 · Post by **Pez7378** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 9:29 am

Night dive Tonight Mukilteo T-dock 7:30.

Seth T. · Post by **Seth T.** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 10:23 am

Pez7378 wrote:Night dive Tonight Mukilteo T-dock 7:30.

Crap. That won't work. I still have empty tanks from the weekend. ](*,) Can you do any other day this week, but earlier; around 3:30ish? Or this weekend?

Pez7378 · Post by **Pez7378** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 11:33 am

I think I'm pretty much free all week, Unless I have to work OT. If air is an issue, I have a spare hp100 Full.

Sounder · Post by **Sounder** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 12:39 pm

Grateful Diver wrote:I got the impression from Calvin's message that he was saying that's not the sort of discussion he wants on this board ... and I think most of us were trying to respect his wishes.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I agree with Bob here, and as this is Calvin's board I respect his request to refrain from this type of posting in the future. My apologies Calvin.

Tangfish · Post by **Tangfish** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 3:15 pm

Well, really this is *our* board, but I am by default the person responsible for keeping us true to what this board is about: which is planning dives and enjoying each others' company.

Thank you to everyone for coming out the other side as friends. As a result, I'm reconsidering deleting this whole thing. If any of you want individual posts deleted, let a moderator know. The first thing I'm gonna do is go and delete my account of deep AL80 diving in Malaysia, before some poor kid over there decides to go try on his own.

dsteding · Post by **dsteding** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 3:35 pm

Calvin wrote:Well, really this is *our* board, but I am by default the person responsible for keeping us true to what this board is about: which is planning dives and enjoying each others' company.

Thank you to everyone for coming out the other side as friends. As a result, I'm reconsidering deleting this whole thing. If any of you want individual posts deleted, let a moderator know. The first thing I'm gonna do is go and delete my account of deep AL80 diving in Malaysia, before some poor kid over there decides to go try on his own.

Feel free to delete anything by me that came across as poo-slinging. My apologies to Seth, I took exception to what I perceived as an attack on Bob, and kinda reacted a bit harsh. My bad-I had a bunch of teeth pulled out Friday and was a bit grumpy.

Calvin, if I hear any more stories about you diving deep on an AL80, I'm gonna knock you over the backside of your head with my can light.

Joshua Smith · Post by **Joshua Smith** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 4:34 pm

What Calvin said. A lot of this stuff would be better handled through PMs. I've broken most of the rules, (many of them with Calvin), but I avoid posting anything about those dives in "public." I'm a grown up, who's used to making my own damn choices in life, and I think most people feel the same way. If someone here is openly asking for advice, they should absolutely recieve it from the many vastly experienced divers here. If someone is posting about doing dangerous stuff- well, it's a 2 way street- the minute you post anything that violates standard safety doctrine, you are basically asking for a huge pile-on by the SCUBA cops. That's what happens on the internet- look at all the other sites on the 'net, if you don't believe me. On the other hand, the difference between this board, and all the other ones out there is that I actually know the majority of regular users- spend much time using this board, and diving locally, and you'll start to see that we are not anonymous, here- I've had lots of people walk up and introduce themselves to me in the parking lot at Cove 2, which is great- I've met some cool people that way-which brings me to the other side of the aforementioned 2 way street: I would ask our members to limit the open criticism of any other diver's experience and training- the use of private messaging would have gone a long way towards maintaining civillity in this thread. Or at least some more carefull phrasing, constructive criticism, and being less confrontational.

Pez7378 · Post by **Pez7378** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 4:56 pm

What we need is a group dive. Followed by a group HUG!

Hehe. and here's Joes reaction to that comment, Dude, dont do that! It's a direct reflection on ME! And thats not how I roll!

Sorry, just trying to add a little levity.

dsteding · Post by **dsteding** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 5:06 pm

Pez7378 wrote:What we need is a group dive. Followed by a group HUG!

Are group hugs DIR?