Edmonds Oil Dock...How Deep Does it Go?

[Burntchef]

[quote="dsteding"]
Whomever trained you should be ashamed of themselves.

quote]


this part i have to disagree with you doug, once your training is over its is now full responsibility of the student to follow or disregard whatever they want. a instructor, mentor, or teacher can only do so much.


ymmv ( i learned that here)

[dsteding]

this part i have to disagree with you doug, once your training is over its is now full responsibility of the student to follow or disregard whatever they want. a instructor, mentor, or teacher can only do so much.


ymmv ( i learned that here)

Good point Howard, but I said that giving Seth the benefit of the doubt. You are right, people dive like that for two reasons (1) they don't know any better or (2) they don't give a crap about their own safety. I am assuming Seth falls into the former category, if the latter, than I agree, not much can be done.

Seth, while I appreciate you trying to take this to PM, I must note that you are the one that comes here and posts about deep dives on single 80s, if you do that, expect to get called out. Defend your practice. What did your instructor teach you in terms of gas management? Let's start there. How did you decide that a single 80 was sufficient?

[dsteding]

What's the point of saying something dumb-ass like that? That's a direct insult and is totally unacceptable. This is an accomplishment that I'm proud of and took work to complete.

If you want to talk further with me about my diving education and training, I suggest that you talk with my privately via email or pm (hell, I'll even give you my phone number). I'm tired of you slandering and belittling me on the public board.

This is sad. Bob is genuinely trying to help. I'm sorry if you see it as slandering and belittling, if anyone has been belitting you, it is me. I may be the bombastic scuba police here, Bob certainly isn't. Listen to him.

[Seth T.]

Other than this thread, when have I EVER mentioned deep dives? I generally prefer shallower, longer dives, than deeper, shorter dives (like my recent string of 90 minute dives). I have no intention of pissing people off by this one single dive and it is certainly not something I do regularly. In fact, according to my log book, my last dive deeper than 110 FSW was in August of 2002!

[dsteding]

Other than this thread, when have I EVER mentioned deep dives? I generally prefer shallower, longer dives, than deeper, shorter dives (like my recent string of 90 minute dives). I have no intention of pissing people off by this one single dive and it is certainly not something I do regularly. In fact, according to my log book, my last dive deeper than 110 FSW was in August of 2002!

To which I'd answer that this dive was an even worse idea. Shallow for 5 yeahs and then this?

But, you still haven't answered the questions on why you thought this was a good idea on an AL80. How'd you arrive at that decision?

[gcbryan]

Other than this thread, when have I EVER mentioned deep dives? I generally prefer shallower, longer dives, than deeper, shorter dives (like my recent string of 90 minute dives). I have no intention of pissing people off by this one single dive and it is certainly not something I do regularly. In fact, according to my log book, my last dive deeper than 110 FSW was in August of 2002!

I'm the last one to join the pig pile when everyone is on someone's case but you are bringing this on yourself. Master Diver is a joke. That doesn't mean that you didn't learn anything in whatever classes that you took. It just means that one doesn't learn much/enough to get the Master Diver cert. In fact you don't really do anything for the cert as it's just a card you apply for after you have taken other classes.

It seems according to your posts that you've been diving for a few years and yet you don't know anything about dive planning/currents and have Fishmillers book but haven't read the part about currents/dive site planning even though the corrections are at the end of every dive site review in the book.

Using an 80 cu ft tank with no redundant supply to go to 130 fsw doesn't make sense. As others have alluded to it doesn't sound like you could have learned much about gas planning and still dive this way.

I agree it doesn't help for people to kid you about being a Master Diver but then you keep bring it up

The reason that people are posting is that it is obvious to everyone reading that there are serious gaps in your dive knowledge and no one wants to read posts such as yours without responding in case something bad happens as a result of these dives one day.


You don't have to follow any rules blindly but you should at least know the rules.

[Seth T.]

To which I'd answer that this dive was an even worse idea. Shallow for 5 yeahs and then this?

You consider 110 FSW shallow?!

[dsteding]

To which I'd answer that this dive was an even worse idea. Shallow for 5 yeahs and then this?

You consider 110 FSW shallow?!

You won't answer my questions because you don't have answers.

BTW, listen to gcbryan as well. He's also a very experienced diver, who has clearly taken the time to think through his approach to diving.

You've joined a very small group of people that I have little respect for.

[Seth T.]

You've joined a very small group of people that I have little respect for.

I see, and which group is that?

[dsteding]

You've joined a very small group of people that I have little respect for.

I see, and which group is that?

Actually, I think you are the first card-carrying member.

Congratulations, you can add it to your collection

[Seth T.]

Actually, I think you are the first card-carrying member.

Congratulations, you can add it to your collection

Sweet! Thanks buddy!

[Pez7378]

Seth, I too will beg you to listen to Bob's words of wisdom. If you dont want to listen to Bob, listen to anyone here who has taken his Free Gas Management Seminar or who has taken his AOW. If you are like most of us, you have a passion for DIVING and you want to do it SAFELY. If this is not the case then dive how you want. WE don't want to hear about it. It's Dangerous and Reckless and people have died doing what you are talking about. ON ALUMINUM 80's and OTHER size cylinders by not having a GAS PLAN. Take whoever you dive with into consideration. Being a Master Diver, or even someone who simply has more experience than your buddy, you should be willing to take responsibility for their safety. Going to 132fsw with 77.4 cubes is not safe. Bob woke up early and took the time to explain it very clearly, and respectfully. And I was there during the incident that he described. Proper dive planning and gas management will prepare any diver for just that sort of an emergency. And it takes practice to conduct open water ascents, Sharing air, holding stops if necessary and maintaining bouyancy. Most instructors don't teach these skills, Bob and few others in this area do. Because of that training, I was able to conduct a free ascent from 92fsw BY MYSELF without freaking out. Im not bragging. I wasn't comfortable with it. But I was prepared.

I guess all I'm saying is maybe you could learn something from some of these folks. They truly have been there and done that. And they dont let their ego's get in the way. If they did, I would't be hanging out with them.
But they will speak out when someone is doing or posting dives, that are dangerous. Ask H2oDr whether anyone thinks it's a good idea to dive the Fingers or the Ferry at night. The goal here is simple, become a BETTER DIVER. DIVE SAFELY. CONTINUE TO LEARN. LEARN FROM THOSE WHO KNOW. Nobody is asking anyone to drink the COOLAID. (That was for you Doug). Just be smart about how you dive, and dive safe. If you insist on doing the types of dives were discussing here, we DON'T want to hear about it. I just hope your luck continues. One small issue starts the chain. I witnessed it yesterday. Fortunately there were experienced divers there and now it's just a story. One anyone here can learn from.

And congratulations on your new card!

[Seth T.]

Thank you, Pez. I really appreciate your advice and info.
:occasion5:

(Finally, someone responds without the "holier than thou" condescension of everyone else!)

[Sounder]

(Finally, someone responds without the "holier than thou" condescension of everyone else!)

Here is another one:


Seth, I too cannot sit here reading this and not say something. When something happens to you, I will be able to sleep at night having addressed you and what you've written.

1. If your instructor, or any instructor for that matter, took you to 130fsw on a single Al80, THEY WERE WRONG and should have their instructor certification placed under review by the certifying agency. This is especially critical due to it being a "deep diving course." That course should have been pounding into you that a dive to 130fsw on a single Al80 is absolutely unsafe and plainly stupid.

Who is this instructor? Really, I would like their name. If you will not provide it, I will contact PADI and request it while citing my concern.

2. What is your gas plan, including rescue contingency planning, for your dive to 132fsw on an Al80? You have continued to avoid answering this question. The reason I suspect you have done this is because there is no safe gas plan that involves a single Al80 to 130+ fsw. I would not take a single HP130 to 130fsw, let alone an 80cu' bottle. If you disagree with my statement, please respond and answer the question. Please include the math break-down in your response.

3. The attitude you have displayed here is arrogant and reckless. You seem to have a false sense of expertise in your certification. You are not giving anyone here much confidence in the PADI Master Diver certification either. Grateful Diver, DSteding, CaptJack, gcbryan, Nailer, etc. are all EXTREMELY TALENTED, HIGHLY TRAINED, WELL RESPECTED ROLE MODELS FOR SAFE DIVING, with a wealth of knowledge they'll gladly and freely give to anyone who wishes to learn. They are (or perhaps now, were) trying to prevent you from hurting or killing someone else, or yourself, through stupid dive plans and a cocky attitude. Not only has their attempts to help you fallen on deaf ears, but you have been insulting and rude in response. In my opinion, you owe them an apology and should heed their warnings.

4. If you elect to continue diving in this fashion, your day will come. Just yesterday someone I thoroughly enjoy diving with could have had a catastrophic ending to her free flow incident (as could be the case with any dive-related emergency). Instead, due to safe dive and gas planning combined with on-going training/practice, the incident was simply an inconvenience that ended what would have otherwise been a fun dive. The incident was perfectly managed because excellent planning was in place and was being followed - the type of planning the people I've cited above do and preach - the type of planning you should learn. Had this same incident happened during the dive you've suggested, I do not have confidence you would be capable of managing it. I would hate for the last thoughts to go through your head as you drown to be "the guys on the board were right." This is what they are trying to prevent.

I will not dive with you. I consider you reckless and arrogant. I am not alone in this opinion.

My suggestion is for you to humble yourself, apologize to those you have insulted, and ask these people to show you how to be safe. Then listen to them, and only speak when you have questions. Despite what you may be thinking, you need their help.

Please also respond to my questions, and the other questions in this thread you have failed to answer. If you do this wisely, the folks here may be willing to explain to you where the problems in your plan are and how to correct them.

The ball is in your court, Seth. The opportunity to lose your attitude and learn what you need to learn is being offered to you. I doubt this opportunity will be offered to you again and fear that if you do not accept it, we will hear about you in the news. Please make the right decision.

[Grateful Diver]

Bob, I've taken a deep diving course and the instructor taught gas management and took us (the class of 4) down to 130 FSW on multiple occations. Are you saying the instructor's wrong?

I have no idea what your instructor taught you ... but if he taught you gas management, then I would say that you're not following what you were taught. If he took you to 130 on an AL80, then he wasn't teaching you much about gas management.

What's the point of saying something dumb-ass like that? That's a direct insult and is totally unacceptable. This is an accomplishment that I'm proud of and took work to complete.

You're obviously proud of diving irresponsibly, too ... if you're proud of your training, then follow it ... there's got to be some safety protocols in there somewhere that should've clued you into the fact that going that deep on that tank isn't a very smart way to dive.

If you want to talk further with me about my diving education and training, I suggest that you talk with my privately via email or pm (hell, I'll even give you my phone number). I'm tired of you slandering and belittling me on the public board.

Well, if you weren't on here bragging about your exploits, then I wouldn't be on here trying to talk some sense into you.

A friend of mine died less than a year ago following some jack-ass macho diver on a dive he had no business doing. Right or wrong, people who don't know any better follow "bold" divers ... and sometimes they don't come back.

Whatever your perceived "accomplishments", you're not following your training by doing these sorts of dives ... if you had an inkling about gas management, you wouldn't be doing them ... and you sure as hell wouldn't be in here bragging about it. If your instructor is cool with you diving like that, then yeah ... I'd say your instructor is wrong.

If you don't want public comments, then don't post your exploits publicly ... because ain't no way in hell I'm going to sit by and watch you influence some newbie diver into thinking stuff like that's OK.

It ain't.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

PS - honestly, Seth ... it's not my intent to insult you. But I DO want you to stop and think about what could go wrong, and whether or not you'd be able to handle it without hurting yourself or someone else. Because most of us ... at one time or another ... thought we were much better divers than we actually were. Maybe my delivery's a bit brusque ... but I'm trying to tell you something important. Please think about it.

[dsteding]

crickets.

[Sounder]

crickets.

Yup. Like I said, the ball is in your court Seth. Several people are waiting to see which direction you choose.

[Fishstiq]

It gives me great confidence in the people i look up to in the dive community to see them call it like it is when they see someone doing wrong. I have doubted my own knowledge and skills on a number of occasions, and people i look up to have encouraged me and said i was doing okay. It's easy to believe that they are just saying this to be nice until a topic like this. Now i know they weren't just being nice, but more importantly, i know that if i was truely strokalicious someone would man up and say so before they would ever see me in an unsafe condition. Thank you. I would rather you hurt my feelings than allow me to risk my life (or the life of a buddy) any day of the week.

[spatman]

It gives me great confidence in the people i look up to in the dive community to see them call it like it is when they see someone doing wrong. .... I would rather you hurt my feelings than allow me to risk my life (or the life of a buddy) any day of the week.

amen, brother.

[Pez7378]

but more importantly, i know that if i was truely strokalicious someone would man up and say so

I got news for you dude. In the DIR community, we're both Strokalicious!! :occasion5: So when do you want to start practicing for Fundies?

[Sounder]

It gives me great confidence in the people i look up to in the dive community to see them call it like it is when they see someone doing wrong. I have doubted my own knowledge and skills on a number of occasions, and people i look up to have encouraged me and said i was doing okay. It's easy to believe that they are just saying this to be nice until a topic like this. Now i know they weren't just being nice, but more importantly, i know that if i was truely strokalicious someone would man up and say so before they would ever see me in an unsafe condition. Thank you. I would rather you hurt my feelings than allow me to risk my life (or the life of a buddy) any day of the week.

Comments like this make spending over an hour writing a single post worth every minute.

I'm just trying to "pay it forward..."

[Seth T.]

I went over this discussion with my buddy (who joined me for our adventure) and we can understand where you guys are coming from. You make some excellent points. Bob, you are correct; the instructor took the class to 130 FSW, all on AL80s. Obviously NOT a good call. Interesting, because according to PADI, the deep course includes dives to depths of 130 FSW; they should put a note that only on large tanks.

I have always prided myself with being an outstanding, safe diver and no one I have dove with has EVER said anything to the contrary, including a number of members on this board. (Sounder, if you refuse to dive with me and make it personal, no worries.)

VMac and I had discussed the dive in depth prior to splashing including gas management, time at depth, when to start our ascent and emergency resolution. We felt completely comfortable with our planning and enjoyed a safe, deep dive.

So, since everyone is blasting us for doing it the wrong way, why don't you tell us the RIGHT way? If we had a pony bottle, would that satisify everyone?

[Burntchef]

[

Who is this instructor? Really, I would like their name. If you will not provide it, I will contact PADI and request it while citing my concern.

REALLY????? so i can call padi or any agency and make accusations based on internet chat about the integrity of there teaching skills???

wow! and what would you like padi to do about it? this thread has some great advice, some very poor comments, and some true care for a persons being. i think its time to let it go, seems like seth has or will figure it out. if not he is a adult and as one is allowed to make his own big boy descions. if his dive buddies want to dive with him and dont care about a gas plan well that is there choice.


but this is all my humble opinion. take it or leave it.

[Burntchef]

hey pez,

i think homer said it best.... mmmmmmm strokalicious!!!!

[Tangfish]

Okay, I hadn't visited this thread for awhile...

First off, this type of discussion isn't what I started this site to provide a venue for.

To no one in particular but to everyone in general: first and foremost, don't tell other divers how to dive, period. If someone asks for advice, please share your wisdom and experience. If someone is simply giving an account of a dive they did and you don't like it, then go find something else to read. It makes me want to barf to hear people saying that so and so is "an accident waiting to happen" a "stroke", should sign up for X, Y and Z, are a "danger to blah blah blah blah blah". We all choose to dive and are ultimately responsible for ourselves and those who chose to dive with us. If you think someone is a retard, don't dive with them - but don't preach to other divers on this board - just tell us about *YOUR* dives and how you like to do em. Sound good?

Seth T., I have to address you individually b/c you're at the center of this soap opera. I know damn well what a "proper" dive is, as in, one that falls under the teachings we all learn in dive classes. I personally don't think that diving to 132' on an AL80 is a death-wish or a heinous crime. In fact, <del>I myself have been to 175' on an AL80 that sat out in the tropical sun for hours, probably with an o-ring that was of typical Malaysian standard (very poor)</del> Don't do this!. The dive lasted 50 minutes. Was I diving within PADI guidelines? No. Was I diving within the limits of my experience and skill at the time? Yes. Do I expect anyone else to do this, simply because I did? No. Could something have gone wrong? Yes. Do things only go wrong when you're doing dives beyond the limits of what PADI teaches you? No. The funnies thing is, I was in more danger eating the food in some places and crossing the street in others in that country, than I ever was during any of the 50 or so dives I did there.

The reason I am telling you all about this dive is b/c many of us here have done dives that go beyond what most books consider as advisable to do, but we don't post about them for fear that some newbie will come here and think it's okay to do a dive like that after being in the water a handful of times. That is why I'm now asking Seth and others not to post about dives that you think may be of borderline safety standards, because new divers are prone to reading things on the internet and then going to do them on their own.

No need for dick swinging here. Many of the dives I've reported on have been pretty challenging dives - some of them were profiles that some here might not view as "proper" - but if that's the case I just post the photos and say how good the fish tacos were afterward; I don't throw it in the faces of people who respect safety and diving within the limits of the training that they subscribe to.

I'm sure I'm not the only diver here who has gone beyond PADI, SSI, NAUI, etc. standards - but the point is that when I do, my buddies and I understand and accept the risks - and do not do anything to encourage others who we don't know to follow suit. Get it?

I'm going to delete this entire thread tomorrow, after everyone gets their final 2 cents in, since this dick swinging/preachfest isn't the type of thing that I want representing NWDC.