Northwest Dive Club

Just saw this...the implications are a bit scary. Without knowing EVERYTHING (like was the instructor in the pool...or in the shower room??) I have to say that being an instructor just got tougher.

http://www.divemaster.com:80/diving-new ... 28723.html

For a student to embolize in the pool, by holding breath from the deep end, and the instructor is liable for death? And these are criminal charges, not civil.

While we try to minimize the risks, I'll be the first to admit that my students could hold their breath from the bottom to the top, without me being able to make them exhale.

In a university program, I'd have to believe they went over the course work prior to their first pool session...and while I'm not sure which agency she was teaching with...ALL agencies cover the basic rule "Always breathe continuously".

Just wanted others thoughts on this one...

I am not a professional so my thoughts may not be the greatest but.............

This is a tragic accident and I wonder how the instructor can be held liable for the mistake of a student that voluntarily participated in a potentially lethal activity. The course material that I have seen while engaged in this activity clearly states that you must exhale while ascending if your regulator is not in your mouth. Never EVER EVER hold your breath. Is it possible that this message was not shared with the students? Was there no liability release signed by each student? If a person is going to participate in an activity that could kill them if done incorrectly, that person should pay very close attention, and do everything they are told to do. To do otherwise could end in tragedy.

Seems like a simple case of natural selection to me. It's tragic but true. You can't fix stupid.

My heart goes out to the instructor, the other students in the class and the deceased students family and friends. This is a sad story.

Wow That is scary! For someone to embolize in a pool? I would think there must be some underlying medical problem. To make criminal charges out of it they would have to prove intent to cause harm and I don't see how they could do that unless there is allot we don't know. Even criminal negligence would hard to prove unless they can prove that the instructor ignored blatant signs of distress?

Dusty2 wrote: Even criminal negligence would hard to prove unless they can prove that the instructor ignored blatant signs of distress?

There were 20 students in the pool....that would be a lot of people for an instructor to keep watch over, and someone might slip through the cracks. I wonder how many instructors were present? Was she the only one?

Sounds like the family or somebody else needs someone to blame besides the student so some things got trumped up out of proportion. It would be good if we could get more info, because this is just wrong.

This is one of those cases where people should refrain from making statements without knowing the facts. I can certainly come up with a number of scenarios where the instructor could have shown "reckless disregard" for the safety of the student which lead to the death. If, IN FACT, there was "reckless disregard" then the charges would be warranted.

Note -- the facts presented are very sketchy -- but of the facts presented, what bothers me the most is that there were 20 students and only one instructor identified. I don't believe any agency approves of that ratio -- and if not, then that, in and of itself, could be the basis for the allegation of "reckless disregard."

Peter Guy wrote:This is one of those cases where people should refrain from making statements without knowing the facts.

Actually, most dive death stories are like that, and that is NWDC's policy as well.

We will all follow this story with interest, and hopefully more information will be forthcoming.

I found myself about to bang out some harsh words about lawyers (in spite of some of the great ones we have here!), but then realized - "Hold on, Tom, there's a whole bunch you don't know about this thing. Back away from the keyboard."

And again, if we can keep the speculation down and comment on the known as more information comes out it will keep the thread on a good track.

This, as most dive accidents, just BEGS for more details. In many cases they never come, although somehow I think this one will be different.

girldiver wrote:While we try to minimize the risks, I'll be the first to admit that my students could hold their breath from the bottom to the top, without me being able to make them exhale.

One of my buddies is a (PADI) instructor. She no longer teaches... For this exercise, she told me she punched a student in the stomach once (hard too) to force them to exhale when they did not. The student lived.

CaptnJack wrote:

girldiver wrote:While we try to minimize the risks, I'll be the first to admit that my students could hold their breath from the bottom to the top, without me being able to make them exhale.

One of my buddies is a (PADI) instructor. She no longer teaches... For this exercise, she told me she punched a student in the stomach once (hard too) to force them to exhale when they did not. The student lived.

I had to do that on more than one occasion when I taught Scuba Diver, both in the pool and in open water. You can try to slow them down, but honestly, if they want to bolt, they're going to bolt. If you can't slow them down, you've got to get that air out somehow.

The materials stress not holding your breath, and the students are (I would like to think) taught in the classroom not to hold their breath, but when they first get in the pool or open water, there is so much going on, most students don't remember that. Holding their breath when they're stressed or task loaded is already a habit that needs to be broken, most of the time, as it is typical for many people to do that on land. A few reminders of "breathe" are usually all it takes to break the habit, but you have to be close enough, and prepared to, stop any student from bolting, IMO. If you can't, then I'd recommend more staff or less students. That's a big reason I would only teach 4 students at a time, and that was with my wife (also an instructor) and typically at least 1 DM, usually 2.

Makes me wonder why another former scuba instructor wasn't charged with homicide. Whatever - judgement day will be a real pisser for him.

Sad stuff. This will be an interesting case to follow.

Sounder wrote:Makes me wonder why another former scuba instructor wasn't charged with homicide. Whatever - judgement day will be a real pisser for him.

Sad stuff. This will be an interesting case to follow.

I am curious as to who or what your your accusing Doug?

This is a serious blow to the dive industry. And Im certain will open a serious can of worms. Not knowing all the details we can only speculate! The sad thing is that you can get sued for anything nowadays. That has always been a givin fact. But to be charged with a crime? I dont know of any instructor or DM that hasent had A close call of some sort. Outcomes can change exponentialy in a matter of seconds. All the training in the world does not make someone exempt.

PM Sent.

Pez7378 wrote:I wonder how the instructor can be held liable for the mistake of a student that voluntarily participated in a potentially lethal activity.

I'm sure her attorney will argue that point.

Highlights one of the reasons why I never worked as a DM, although I got certified as one. The scary liabilities involved were just not worth it.

Yeah, I'd love to learn more details. I feel awful for the victim, his family, loved ones, AND the instructor.

I remember signing a whole bunch of liability waivers before my OW class......by the time I was taking CCR trimix classes, the waivers were huge. After trying to read one all the way through, I became more or less convinced that my instructor could have cut my head off with a pocketknife in broad daylight in front of a dozen FBI agents, and still be found "not guilty" in a court of law; but I guess that if she violated training standards, all bets would have been off.

This story at least serves as a great reminder for everyone that you can indeed embolize on a 12 foot ascent.....never hold your breath while ascending, kids.

Nailer99 wrote:I remember signing a whole bunch of liability waivers before my OW class......by the time I was taking CCR trimix classes, the waivers were huge. After trying to read one all the way through, I became more or less convinced that my instructor could have cut my head off with a pocketknife in broad daylight in front of a dozen FBI agents, and still be found "not guilty" in a court of law; but I guess that if she violated training standards, all bets would have been off.

Yup. Mrs. Sounder has NO PROBLEM signing liability waivers... if the person the waiver is "protecting" is in the wrong, all bets are off.

Mrs. Sounder has NO PROBLEM signing liability waivers... if the person the waiver is "protecting" is in the wrong, all bets are off.

Hmmm, Mrs. Sounder just may be on the wrong side of the law in Washington. Boyce v. West, 71 Wn. App. 657 (1993) (But also see Rasmussen v. Bendotti, 107 Wn App. 947 (2001)) BTW, these are THE liability cases in Washington. (You should be able to Google both of them and be able to read the opinions.)

On another Board was the statement that the "instructor" was NOT a "certified" instructor but, to the contrary, the wife of one who "helped out" with the class. It does sound like there are too many unknowns for any of us to be making any type of reasonable statement.

Peter Guy wrote:

Mrs. Sounder has NO PROBLEM signing liability waivers... if the person the waiver is "protecting" is in the wrong, all bets are off.

Hmmm, Mrs. Sounder just may be on the wrong side of the law in Washington. Boyce v. West, 71 Wn. App. 657 (1993) (But also see Rasmussen v. Bendotti, 107 Wn App. 947 (2001)) BTW, these are THE liability cases in Washington. (You should be able to Google both of them and be able to read the opinions.)

On another Board was the statement that the "instructor" was NOT a "certified" instructor but, to the contrary, the wife of one who "helped out" with the class. It does sound like there are too many unknowns for any of us to be making any type of reasonable statement.

That's interesting - I'll have to ask her what she thinks of those cases.

I'm sure I didn't frame it the way she would have, and there is a chance I'm way off too (that's been known to happen). It is my understanding that someone can't have you sign away your rights in the event of reckless behaviour or gross negligence. Course, they can write anything they want, and you can sign anything you want. Even if you explicitly sign everything away, nothing stops you from filing anyway and letting a jury decide who is responsible.

Regarding gross negligence -- you are right. Waivers of liability apply to "normal" negligence, not gross negligence (which includes a reckless disregard). And (perhaps) liability waivers only apply to those things which are "reasonably foreseeable" in the dive -- free flow perhaps -- but not (again perhaps) being left behind by a boat to drift in the channel (not that such EVER happens!).

I found an article with some more info on the death of the student. It seems the instructor was in another part of the pool !

http://diverdown.newsvine.com/_news/200 ... uba-course

That links to a CDNN article. The last time I linked to a CDNN article I got blasted. Just a heads up to any of you who are NOT Fans of CDNN.

CDNN wrote:The civil lawsuit alleges that Gibson was not in the pool during the training exercise. Instead the lawsuit says Gibson was giving a private lesson to Lewis Fitts, who was not enrolled in the class, at the opposite end of the pool. Gibson left two men with less scuba expertise in charge, the lawsuit alleges, which led to Moore’s death.