Edmonds Oil Dock to be removed soon.

[TCWestby]

I think the nold squeaky wheel adage should come into play here. I have written Seantor Berkey and plan to do the same with my other representatives. If we all squeak then someone will begin to listen, hopefully but this nhas to get somewhat organized and needs to come from all dorections.

I would thing that as big as the dive community is, if everyone began writing their representatives at least this will be brought into the light.

[GetWet]

I'm in agreement, it is unfortunate that the the pilings were ever put in the water full of toxins. However, since they are now there, and are obviously a thriving ecosystem, I would be all for lobbying to create something for the critters to land on and hopefully attach to prior to pulling the pilings out. I have heard that there is another group working on this idea, sure wouldn't hurt to add our voices.

Thanks for the information, and the posts. Being a new diver, imagine my excitement finding the oil docks, and my disappointment hearing that shortly after being able to go there they would be gone.

But this begs for continued diligence in protecting the water and what is used in it for commercial applications... sigh.

Melissa

](*,)

[dollyv]

Can someone provide a link to when the dock will be removed or a known date from some source? There was an earlier post that showed a pdf map of the alternative with the oil dock removed but the link doesn't connect to an EIS or other information document with the schedule.

[Pez7378]

Couldn't find anything solid on an exact date for the Unocal Pier removal. I did get caught up in reading this however:

http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/NR/rdonlyres/7C ... pter_3.pdf

Very interesting. 106 pages of information. It even documents all of the Unocal spills (10), accidents and mishaps during its operational heyday. Seems like they cleaned a lot of it up from 2001-2005 but are still working on it while studying the effects.

One thing I noticed is that they clearly identify the 300 foot Drydock as one of the recreational attractions to the Underwater park. I don't think anyone can ever convince me that it's "Off limits" anymore.

[Pez7378]

I guess we will not get replacement for any of the pilings, tire reefs....
Meanwhile:
http://www.peninsuladailynews.com/artic ... /808210305

Resources's creosote inventory and removal program identifies and removes creosote and other treated wood materials from beaches through Puget Sound's seven northernmost counties — Jefferson, Clallam, San Juan, Island, Whatcom, Skagit and Snohomish.

I wonder how many Creosote covered pilings are on the seattle waterfront? (which happens to be in KING county, which happens to NOT be on this list)

[Penopolypants]

Can someone provide a link to when the dock will be removed or a known date from some source? There was an earlier post that showed a pdf map of the alternative with the oil dock removed but the link doesn't connect to an EIS or other information document with the schedule.

It looks like the demolition permit has been applied for but hasn't been issued. Which doesn't mean much....if it were issued tomorrow then demo could theoretically start immediately on some of it.

You can check the permit status here:
https://permits.edmonds.wa.us/citizen/P ... ID=PT-LIVE

Search by address, which is 700 Admiral Way. Other city permits associated with this project can be found there as well.

The BMPs to reduce further risk of contamination during removal of creosote pilings is listed as supporting documentation for the permit, if you care to know how they're doing it.

I find it interesting that the ones that have already fallen are to be left alone. The site won't be completely barren.

[Nwbrewer]

My goal was to ask for FACTS, i.e. what specific data is there about the oil dock in particular, that sort of thing. I may have had a bit of an edge in my voice, but we'll see what she says. My hope is that I asked enough questions to generate a response, and I'll go from there. Clearly this is a done deal no matter what I or any number of us say, so I'll grant it's a bit like beating my head against a wall.

I agree, at this point I think the removal of the pier is a done deal. I think that the best option is to engage our one and only, pathetically underfunded special interest group WSA, and TRY to get the city/state/feds? to bring in some habitat for some of that life to reclaim. In other words, since they are dead set on ripping it out, let's have them drop in something else instead.

Jake

[John Rawlings]

I find it interesting that the ones that have already fallen are to be left alone. The site won't be completely barren.

I noticed that comment as well.....perhaps I'm being overly cynical, but I do not believe it. The sites they have done previously have all been completely swept clean and left as bare as a baby's butt.

I also found the comment about "shaking" the pilings as they are removed to dislodge life interesting. A nudibranch, anemone or shrimp living its entire life on a piling isn't going to survive long after being dropped onto bare sand....I think that they are saying this merely to placate those of us that care about such things.

Man....I'm normally such a positive thinking guy....gotta stay away from this thread before it turns me into something I don't want to be!

- John

[Pez7378]

Man....I'm normally such a positive thinking guy....gotta stay away from this thread before it turns me into something I don't want to be!

- John

What's that John?................IRISH?!? (Josh turns, Chris hides)

[Sea of Green]

Sorry about the riff-raff comment, I couldn't resist. I think the word you're looking for is rip-rap.

That's ok, yeah, rip-rap is what I meant.

It may be better to convince the powers that be to provide us with something in return.

Now you're on it. A well-planned, non-toxic artificial reef is the way to go. Collective pressure by the diving community may have a positive effect.

I wouldn't ask about introducing your own reef objects -- that opens another can of worms, with environmental assessments and approvals, etc. It could get ugly. If that's what you want to do I'd just do it and not say anything. (Note that I'm not advocating it, just trying to save you some trouble).

How does Bruce Higgins do what he does it at the park? Make it BHUT south. I still like the looks of that huge breakwater, providing they don't post "no diving" signs there.

[Sea of Green]

Can someone provide a link to when the dock will be removed or a known date from some source? There was an earlier post that showed a pdf map of the alternative with the oil dock removed but the link doesn't connect to an EIS or other information document with the schedule.

There are a couple links in my original post at the very beginning of this thread, but here is the WSDOT link. On the left of the WSDOT website are a couple dozen links to documents. Very dry stuff. (Ha! That's a pun, get it?)

http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/projects/ferrie ... sterminal/

They don't have a specific date and schedule yet as far as I know, only that it will be sometime after Labor Day (see my original post).

http://www.nwdiveclub.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5371

[dollyv]

I did call the Ferry Communication Office about the current schedule. They said they are beginning the dock removal by mid-November with completion of the project by March.

[Joshua Smith]

Man....I'm normally such a positive thinking guy....gotta stay away from this thread before it turns me into something I don't want to be!

- John

What's that John?................IRISH?!? (Josh turns, Chris hides)

What's that you say, Boyo?

[Pez7378]

Man....I'm normally such a positive thinking guy....gotta stay away from this thread before it turns me into something I don't want to be!

- John

What's that John?................IRISH?!? (Josh turns, Chris hides)

What's that you say, Boyo?

I like Guinness!

[dwashbur]

So what's wrong with being *hic* Irish??????????????????????

[Pez7378]

So what's wrong with being *hic* Irish??????????????????????

Nothing, unless you're Scottish. I like Jamesons too!

[jerryehrlich]

Creating habitat isn't part of the official program. The official program is to remove the pilings completely and kill anything on them. Unless they have changed their methods since they destroyed the Mukilteo T-Pier all that will be left behind will be a completely shaved sand bottom - they dig as far down into the sand as they can to remove all trace of "un-natural" structure.

Establishing new habitat requires permission from not only the same folks that destroyed the old habitat, but a long list of other agencies as well.

We have managed to create agencies that do nothing but hinder, while simultaneously legislating ourselves into a corner.
Am I cynical? You bet! It comes from years and years of futily attempting to do here what other states and Provinces seem to be able to do only to see the efforts here stone-walled at every turn.

It's frightening, but every now and then I actually understand the Anarchists' viewpoint when it comes to government.

- John (grumble - grumble - grumble)

John,

You might want to check on the science done on the Titlow pilings and the damage the creosote pilings were doing. They look great from our perspective, but the metridiums merely pass the poison up the food chain.

The science was originally done by two young women who are avid divers and wanted to prove that the pilings should stay. They were totally surprised by the results of their study and have become serious advocates for the removal of creosote impregnated pilings. Bellarmine Prep is where the project originated.

We all want a vibrant underwater world to dive and we need to consider our decisions carefully. What we see with our casual observations is not always as we interpret it.

Best,

Jerry

[dwashbur]

Creating habitat isn't part of the official program. The official program is to remove the pilings completely and kill anything on them. Unless they have changed their methods since they destroyed the Mukilteo T-Pier all that will be left behind will be a completely shaved sand bottom - they dig as far down into the sand as they can to remove all trace of "un-natural" structure.

Establishing new habitat requires permission from not only the same folks that destroyed the old habitat, but a long list of other agencies as well.

We have managed to create agencies that do nothing but hinder, while simultaneously legislating ourselves into a corner.
Am I cynical? You bet! It comes from years and years of futily attempting to do here what other states and Provinces seem to be able to do only to see the efforts here stone-walled at every turn.

It's frightening, but every now and then I actually understand the Anarchists' viewpoint when it comes to government.

- John (grumble - grumble - grumble)

John,

You might want to check on the science done on the Titlow pilings and the damage the creosote pilings were doing. They look great from our perspective, but the metridiums merely pass the poison up the food chain.

The science was originally done by two young women who are avid divers and wanted to prove that the pilings should stay. They were totally surprised by the results of their study and have become serious advocates for the removal of creosote impregnated pilings. Bellarmine Prep is where the project originated.

We all want a vibrant underwater world to dive and we need to consider our decisions carefully. What we see with our casual observations is not always as we interpret it.

Best,

Jerry

References? So we can check it out?

[John Rawlings]

Creating habitat isn't part of the official program. The official program is to remove the pilings completely and kill anything on them. Unless they have changed their methods since they destroyed the Mukilteo T-Pier all that will be left behind will be a completely shaved sand bottom - they dig as far down into the sand as they can to remove all trace of "un-natural" structure.

Establishing new habitat requires permission from not only the same folks that destroyed the old habitat, but a long list of other agencies as well.

We have managed to create agencies that do nothing but hinder, while simultaneously legislating ourselves into a corner.
Am I cynical? You bet! It comes from years and years of futily attempting to do here what other states and Provinces seem to be able to do only to see the efforts here stone-walled at every turn.

It's frightening, but every now and then I actually understand the Anarchists' viewpoint when it comes to government.

- John (grumble - grumble - grumble)

John,

You might want to check on the science done on the Titlow pilings and the damage the creosote pilings were doing. They look great from our perspective, but the metridiums merely pass the poison up the food chain.

The science was originally done by two young women who are avid divers and wanted to prove that the pilings should stay. They were totally surprised by the results of their study and have become serious advocates for the removal of creosote impregnated pilings. Bellarmine Prep is where the project originated.

We all want a vibrant underwater world to dive and we need to consider our decisions carefully. What we see with our casual observations is not always as we interpret it.

Best,

Jerry

That's all well and good, but you are missing my point entirely. My point is that they completely eliminate existing habitat and replace it with nothing....nadda....zilch....a sterile, shaved clean, bald bottom. All this is occurring at a time when no one is being allowed by the government to create habitat.

Remove the creosote....marvelous! Leaving nothing but bare sand or mud....not so marvelous.

- John

[dsteding]

. All this is occurring at a time when no one is being allowed by the government to create habitat.

- John

Uh, not so true. There are many habitat creation projects going on in the Sound right now, I can name a half a dozen off the top of my head being done as mitigation for past natural resource damages alone. Not to mention the efforts to restore eel grass beds as part of the overall salmon recovery work.

If I may, we need to step back a bit. Divers get worked up when "their" dive sites get taken out , even though the science is pretty damn clear that creosote pilings are bad juju (I hold a Ph.D. in environmental chemistry, so I'm not really shooting from the hip here).

The bottom line is that the Sound as we dive in it is vastly different than the Sound 100 years ago. Imagine diving in a place more similar to the Sunshine Coast of BC, or a place where life is more abundant like the San Juans. That is probably the baseline and the diving conditions we could have if things like urban runoff and non-point sources of pollution were better controlled.

John, you're missing the forest for the trees (or the pilings in this case). I can understand being grumpy because a dive site is disappearing, but maybe be a little less cynical about the prospects of the Sound or the efforts of others to restore it.

[John Rawlings]

Eel grass? I guess that I should have said "structure" to be clear about what I am referring to. I hope that they will introduce structural habitat after they tear everything out...I will be the first one to applaud if they do....but something tells me that my hands won't be clapping.

No worries, though....I'm done.

You people are far more trusting of government than I am....or ever will be.

- John

[dsteding]

Eel grass? I guess that I should have said "structure" to be clear about what I am referring to. I hope that they will introduce structural habitat after they tear everything out...I will be the first one to applaud if they do....but something tells me that my hands won't be clapping.

No worries, though....I'm done.

You people are far more trusting of government than I am....or ever will be.

- John

Best thing for the Sound would be to re-introduce eel grass. Herring, juvenile salmon, the whole base of the food chain depends on it. Armoring of shorelines and destruction of eel grass lead to worse water quality (think reduced vis) and less productivity (think less fishies).

Eel grass=better than any man-made structures, unfortunately structures are better dive sites.

It is okay to want to live and dive in a world of man-made structures and amusements. But, don't go howling that "habitat" is being destroyed when you seem to lack a basic understanding of the mechanics of the ecological system you are interacting in.

Call it what it is: the loss of a really cool jungle gym for divers.

I'm bummed too, but it isn't loss of habitat, unless you consider the incidental growth on the pilings to be important natural habitat for the Sound.

[John Rawlings]

....don't go howling that "habitat" is being destroyed when you seem to lack a basic understanding of the mechanics of the ecological system you are interacting in.

Doug,

I did not say that eel grass isn't important. In point of fact it is an absolutely key element in the overall health of the Sound. However, eel grass is not the only thing this Sound of ours needs. Underwater structure is also a key element of a healthy Sound and many species if fish and invertebrates require it for their survival at various stages of their life-cycles. My point is that solid structure (man-made though it is) is going to be removed and it would be a good thing if some sort of solid structure was put in in its place.

If you look back at this discussion you will see that my primary objection to the removal is that they leave the bottom scraped and replace it with nothing. I have seen this with my own eyes and know that in the recent past this is what has been done. There is a better way of doing this involving at least partial restoration of structure - not just for divers, but for species that require it. I also believe that, unfortunately, this will not happen.

You have no idea what my understanding of this situation is or of my educational level in these issues. If you feel the need to toss out insults like your above comment, please do us all a favor and do so by means of a PM.

- John

[dwashbur]

. All this is occurring at a time when no one is being allowed by the government to create habitat.

- John

Uh, not so true. There are many habitat creation projects going on in the Sound right now, I can name a half a dozen off the top of my head being done as mitigation for past natural resource damages alone.

So why don't you? I hate generalizations like this. If you can name half a dozen, please do so.

If I may, we need to step back a bit. Divers get worked up when "their" dive sites get taken out , even though the science is pretty damn clear that creosote pilings are bad juju (I hold a Ph.D. in environmental chemistry, so I'm not really shooting from the hip here).

While I can respect what it takes to get a PH.D. (I never got to finish mine), a degree is by no means a guarantee of either expertise or, more importantly, objectivity. My objection to the whole oil dock thing is the destruction of the life that's already there. And if John is correct, that the end result is basically a "scorched earth" approach, then we're not just talking about the destruction of what's there, but the absence of anything to replace it and virtually ensuring that nothing can grow there. I tend to suspect that's at least as bad as the whole creosote thing, maybe worse.

The bottom line is that the Sound as we dive in it is vastly different than the Sound 100 years ago.

It's different than it was 5 minutes ago. That's one of the reasons that exploring it never gets boring.

[dsteding]

....don't go howling that "habitat" is being destroyed when you seem to lack a basic understanding of the mechanics of the ecological system you are interacting in.

You have no idea what my understanding of this situation is or of my educational level in these issues. If you feel the need to toss out insults like your above comment, please do us all a favor and do so by means of a PM.

- John

Sorry John, perhaps a bit over the line. I just get a bit wound up when people equate critters with healthy habitat. Something along the lines of "there are lots of fish here because we put XXXX structure in place-it must be good for the ecosystem."

Somehow that strikes me a bit like maintaining a garden rather than being a steward of the environment. I'm also not so sure that putting something else in there to replace the habitat lost by the pilings makes sense. What was there before? What would work best in terms of moving back towards the appropriate baseline in terms of overall habitat function?

We're not gardeners, and shouldn't be. This sort of habitat management or "more structure equals more critters equals better habitat" is a bit reminiscent of the anti-fire "more trees" is better attitude of the Forest Service for the better part of the 20th Century. We see where that has been going.

All that aside, didn't mean to insult and offend, my bad, I hope you accept my apology.