Buoyancy Control

[Samson]

Having completed my first dry suit dives last weekend and looking forward to my next two this weekend,..and finishing my OW certification,... I have some questions for the club.

We are being instructed to use our drysuits for boyancy instead of our BCD's. My first dive was a disaster. I was underweighted, my drysuit experience was a nightmare. My boots kept getting filled with air as I swam around and I would start to float up feet first. I had to struggle to flip over and vent the air out, then slowly add some air and the whole process would start over again. Inflate, swim. fins go up,.. flip,.. deflate,........... repeat....

After I had depleated 3/4 of my air,,.. I just could not stay down as I was underweighted and therefore had to surface,...like it or not.

Dive Two.....

Added 10 lbs and Taddddaaaaa..... I could now submerge under control and with ease.... However,... as soon as I started to swim around,..... fins up,.. flip over,.. deflate,.... repeat.....
After two rounds of this,... I said screw it.... "I am just going to use enough air to stop the squeeze in the drysuit, and use my BCD for boyancy" I said to myself.....

Wow,... all of a sudden I was in control and had a great dive......
First of all, this is not an instructor bashing session,.. I love my instructors and think they are awesome! But this using your BCD for boyancy is nuts....

Next, I recieve my sons new drysuit..... I am reading the instructions and low and behold,.. in big black letters it says,,.."NEVER USE YOUR DRYSUIT FOR BOYANCY CONTROL".....

???????????

Then I am reading in Scuba Today,.. or something like that,.. (it was a mag in the dive shop) about a young man whom drown due to the fact that he failed to connect his inflation hose to his drysuit. He was found on the bottom with his hose disconnected,.. bcd empty and fully weighted down.....had he not been instructed how to use his BCD for boyancy?? Was he only taught to use his Drysuit for boyancy?? Dangerous questions I think.......
His buddy reported that he had tried to inflate his drysuit, but was obviously unable to do so with the hose disconnected. Thus he sank and drown.....


So lets hear it ........ Use your drysuit for boyancy or no???

I know, that despite my instructors guidlines,..I will never use my drysuit for boyancy.... It is rediculous to assume that you can control the air in what is essentially a big bag surrounding your entire body...... How could one possibly control where the air is going to flow when swimming around ??? The reason they call the BCD a "Boyancy Control Device" is pretty self explanitory to me......

Anyway,... I would love to hear others take on this subject.

Samson-

[Joshua Smith]

Use whichever one you like better. When I dove open circuit, I used my wing for buoyancy and just added enough gas to my suit to be comfortable. Using the suit for buoyancy is a little trickier, especially for beginners. PADI's official stance is to use the suit, but it makes no difference, really- just use what works for you. Just remember to vent (wing or suit) before you start getting too positive on ascent.

[dsteding]

I've done both at one point or another. Started wing for buoyancy control, went to suit for control. I stay warmer, and find it easier to manage on ascents-wing has enough gas in it (more or less) for compensating for the buoyancy swing of my tank.

This is an age-old debate.

[Phineas Gage]

Hey Samson,
There are lots of instructors, divemasters, tech divers, and people with lots more experience than me on this board, but it sounds like you haven't really given your drysuit a chance yet. I had the same sort of experience on my first couple of dives in mine. It seemed to me that using it for buoyancy was just plain weird. But I kept at it for a little while and now it really works for me.

After I had better control over my buoyancy in my drysuit, I decided to try the "just enough to alleviate squeeze" method for a few dives and found that it just didn't feel as natural to me. Still, I have found that when I get below about 80fsw or so it's a little easier to trim out with a few bursts into my wing. Just have to remember on the way back up to manage the extra bubble on my back too.

As for that magazine article, I read that one too. There's a lot more to that story than simply forgetting to connect your drysuit inflator = you drown. I think the point of the story was that a simple issue can snowball if you panic and don't THINK first. As a matter of fact my son did the same thing at Cove 2 this past Saturday, as we were descending he just looked at me, rolled his eyes, pointed at his chest and I connected it for him. No biggie because he didn't flip out about it. (and he was packing a video housing to boot) Of course when the dive was over I was obligated to raz him for being a warm-water bonehead since it was our first dive back home after being in Hawaii.

Give your drysuit a fair chance, and if you still think it doesn't work for you. Then just become a BCD person, I guess.

My $0.02, FWIW.

[Diver_C]

I use both, but maybe more in my bc, than drysuit. However, while below the surface, usually don't have much gas in either so I'm really not sure. My preference also varies depending on various things; for example, if the water is really cold, I probably have more in my dry suit than other times because the argon and puffier suit are warmer, than just above squeeze level. I like more than just above squeeze in my drysuit in general because I am more flexible that way, and I have flexibility issues when doing the valve drill. I like having gas in my bc, so I do have it in there. Here's what I think I do - I get in the general vicinity of the buoyancy I want with my bc, then fine tune it with my dry suit. Good luck!

P.S. Dive at your own risk, and don't rely upon me for advice; I don't want to be sued.

[60south]

Hey Samson, you're getting good advice here.

I would add that I had the same problems when I first started out. What helped a lot was...

1. Having a drysuit that fits properly. One that's too baggy will be hard to control.
2. Getting my weighting right. It's so finely tuned now that I don't bother to use my wing most of the time. A small amount of air in the suit is enough.

YMMV (your mileage may vary). Do what works best for you, and stay open to learning new skills!

glenn

[Sounder]

Everybody has the feet-up issue when they're first using a drysuit. It comes with the territory. It will get easier, but that's yet ANOTHER reason not to venture deep before your experience and your education will allow. A feet-first ascent from a deep depth is a whole lot worse than one from a shallow depth.

While you're learning the drysuit, remember that during uncontrolled ascents, continue to breathe - specifically, continue to exhale as not to allow an expansion injury.

Beyond that - I'm a hybrid of drysuit buoyancy and wing buoyancy. I do both, at the same time, during the same dive. I put much more than the necessary minimum of gas in my suit to off-set the squeeze... but it's not enough to make me neutral so I also put gas in my wing. One the way back up, it's a matter of dumping them both in adequate amounts. Knowing how much, and from which source, to dump is a learned skill which comes with practice (i.e. toggling the volume actively during a dive with the intent on learning how much gas goes where when you do what...) it's not a science, it's more of an art.

[Dusty2]

First for your instructor, He is teaching what he is required to by PADI or whom ever. Don't judge him ill. You might go to him tell him your having a problem with suite only boyancy and ask "off the record" what he uses. The different certifiying agencies have strick guidlines as to what the official line is that must be taught.

I think everyone has some problems with that when starting out. I'm betting you are in a shell suite. First and foremost put on some ankle weights, they both help to keep your feet down and they also allow less air into your boots and transfer some weight aft. I don't know anyone that doesn't use them in a dry-suit. Gaiters can also help if you are in a shell suit.

As for your question.... Use what works for you. I used to use both but I have slowly come to the point where my bc is seldom inflated except on entering the water and once in awhile on exit. For the most part I only use my suite now. My BC is completely deflated unless I want to carry something heavy in like an anchor or weights It takes some practice to get to the point where you can since when to tuck a little to move the air around but once you get it, it's pretty natural and it's allot easer to only have to deal with one source of buoyancy when ascending.

[Sounder]

Yeah - see I'd NEVER tell you to put on ankle-weights and would focus more on skill and practice.

People will recommend very different solutions to the same problem. You've got to find what's right for you. I believe that being your first two dives in a drysuit, adding extra gear to compensate for a problem you're having is extremely premature... others would say differently.

Fortunately for you, you've got a wealth of information here to help you. Capitalize on it and keep asking questions!!

If you're interested in the details behind my recommendation for why you don't need ankle weights, please feel free to PM me. It's another age-old debate which, in the interest of not cluttering the board with nonsense, is a discussion better had via PM.

[Metal man]

When I got certified, this last August, the instructor asked me before we went down which one I was going to use for boyancy, and that was a PADI course. I think it's certainly good to know how to use your BCD regardless of which you use.
In the begining I had a tough time with my suit as well, tried the ankle weights, tried using the siut and the BC (this just got too confusing) and now I just use my suit. Course my suit is an Apollo soooo I have ankle valves, it almost feels like cheating... but I sure like it.
For me at least, a big factor was just learning how to stay horizontal in the water. I do think if I had a shell suit I'd go with the gators as others on here have said, those would seem to make the most sense to me.

[lurch]

You've discovered what the rest of us have at one point or another.

Do what works for you. Change if necessary (or just if you want).

[Tom Nic]

For my first couple hundred dives or so I put just enough air in my suit to offset squeeze and used my BCD for buoyancy control - it is, after all, a buoyancy control device! :-)

Part of the reason I did that was that it made sense to me at the time, plus I did not trust my dry suit to vent vast enough on ascent from depth. I was nervous with air in my suit because it was new ground and a skill I wasn't confident with. And I was able to dive just fine doing it that way, although I probably ran my suit a little too tight - it's not supposed to hurt!

One day on a lark I decided to try using my drysuit exclusively for buoyancy control. Wow... amazing. I was warmer, it worked great, and even though it felt a bit different at first I don't dive any other way now. Two or 3 dives was all it took to get comfortable.

Bottom line is that there is no "right" way to do it. Do what works, get comfortable in the water. My guess is that your diving style and preferences will evolve as you go along - especially if you dive alot.

As you get more comfortable in the water and with your weighting I would also suggest to have some conversations with folks who can help you adjust your trim and weighting. How your weights are positioned can make a difference, and I would generally try and fix a problem by working on a skill, not just just throwing equipment at it. That being said, if you're not sinking, you need more weight as you discovered.

Keep at it, it get's easier!

[Samson]

Thanks for all the great advice guys! I understand that it is the PADI way to teach suit control...IT is great to hear that there are lots of different ways out there and that not just "ONE" way is right or wrong..... Our instructors are great guys and gals and we have enjoyed our time with them very much!

We will be certified this weekend sooooo.... Lets go diving!!!!!!!

Samson-

[Layner]

All great advice. Do what you are comfortable with and experiment to find out. I also dive a shell suit, and one thing I've found useful for keeping the air out of my feet is using fin keepers. Just little rubber straps that go over your feet and keep the air from creating a bubble in there.

[lurch]

Also try thicker socks especially if your drysuit boots fit a bit tight to begin with. Some side benefits are more cushion when walking topside and greater warmth.

[Nwbrewer]

Dr. Sholls sole inserts. Add some padding, take up some room.

[Grateful Diver]

I think everyone has some problems with that when starting out. I'm betting you are in a shell suite. First and foremost put on some ankle weights, they both help to keep your feet down and they also allow less air into your boots and transfer some weight aft. I don't know anyone that doesn't use them in a dry-suit. Gaiters can also help if you are in a shell suit.

I don't use ankle weights.

I got the same advice when I started diving a drysuit ... and in fact, my first (Diving Concepts) drysuit came with an instruction manual that said use the suit for buoyancy control. So I did. And I bought some ankle weights. And after a dozen or so dives, decided I really didn't like 'em. I also tried gaitors ... liked those better than ankle weights, but one day I forgot to bring them with me and found out that I really didn't need them anymore. So they joined my ankle weights in the "box of stuff I'll probably never use again".

Over time I tried switching to my BCD for buoyancy control, and decided I liked it better ... it was easier to invert when I wanted to take a picture, or just look at something without getting my fins too close to the bottom. Now I dive with just enough gas in my suit to avoid a body hickey.

Actually, the ankle weights came out of that box a couple years ago ... I discovered that they made decent channel weights for my doubles rig (I had to cut the little strappy-things with the plastic clips off, though).

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[camerone]

I don't know anyone that doesn't use them in a dry-suit. Gaiters can also help if you are in a shell suit.

I don't use them, either. I tried them when I was just starting out, but one day, I had to loan them to someone who was slightly underweighted. When I dove without them, my trim got a lot better, and I've never gone back. Frankly, I think they're a crutch for not knowing or investing the time to figure out the proper way to distribute weight on your rig, and they're not a tool to used correctively.

On the other hand, I find that a set of them clipped end to end is the perfect format to move around 3-4 lbs to the top section of my rebreather - spiraled around the canister hoses up top, they move the center of balance to just the right point.

One thing I suggest if your feet are floaty are "fin keepers." They're a pair of triangular rubber straps that slip over your boots and heel, and can help keep air out from where it doesn't belong, particularly if your boots don't fit quite right, or you're simply diving thinner socks than usual. They're only $7 (http://www.dolphinscuba.com/Trident_Fin ... 57-dps.htm), and, while I no longer wear them, I do recommend them, or use them when I borrow a suit that's not just sized right for me.

[coachrenz]

I don't know anyone that doesn't use them in a dry-suit. Gaiters can also help if you are in a shell suit.

I don't use them, either. I tried them when I was just starting out, but one day, I had to loan them to someone who was slightly underweighted. When I dove without them, my trim got a lot better, and I've never gone back. Frankly, I think they're a crutch for not knowing or investing the time to figure out the proper way to distribute weight on your rig, and they're not a tool to used correctively.

One thing I suggest if your feet are floaty are "fin keepers." They're a pair of triangular rubber straps that slip over your boots and heel, and can help keep air out from where it doesn't belong, particularly if your boots don't fit quite right, or you're simply diving thinner socks than usual. , and, while I no longer wear them, I do recommend them, or use them when I borrow a suit that's not just sized right for me.

I have made this point before, but, I will make it again. I know people who use ankle weights, one of whom likely has more dives than probably all the posters on this board combined, certainly more than the "regular" posters. Does that mean that this particular person needs a "crutch" to dive or doesn't know how to or hasn't invested the time needed to learn how to properly weight themselves? Come on. Get real. What kind of a statement is that?

Another point, so, ankle weights are a crutch and fin keepers aren't? How is this possible?

If you don't want to wear ankle weights, fine. Good for you. Doesn't make it a crutch or wrong for anyone who does.

If you want to get really technical, isn't all the gear we use a "crutch" to help us in the aquatic environment? Some would say an SPG is a crutch (lots say that computers are, but not me), wasn't there a time when you just kept breathing until it got hard to breathe and then you either headed to the surface or flipped a lever on your valve and then headed to the surface?

I, personally, think that ankle weights actually improve my trim. I know I don't need them, as I give them up to students when they need extra weight, but, I always feel a bit out of trim without them. I also actually added some weight to my ankles with a gear change as I found it was not only better in the water, but, on the surface, the extra weight actually felt better on my ankles.

Try out different gear configurations. Go with what works for you and what makes you feel comfortable and safe.

[scottsax]

I've tried ankle weights, and didn't like them-they put me in a feet-down angle in the water. I then tried fin keepers, which were cool, but then I got rock boots, and they kept the air out of my feet. I found, though, that now my lower legs were a little floaty, so 1 pair of XL Golem Gear gaiters later (heh-it rhymes!), all is good.

YMMV.

Bottom line-what works for you works for you. Experiment, and go slow and safe to start.

[RSdancey]

The first thing I would do is grab a buddy and head over to Cove 3. Gear up, and go out to where the water is at about 15-20 feet deep. Now learn about your drysuit. Learn how to dump air from it by moving your arm. Figure out how much air is too much, how much makes your feet "floaty", what it feels like when there's not enough gas and the suit is too tight for comfort.

Learn what to do when you end up head down and headed for the surface. Figure out what happens when you roll to the left and the right. Get used to the cold spots that form when the undergarment gets compressed. Connect and disconnect the hose so you'll know what to do if the valve sticks open.

Wear really warm socks, because you're going to get cold feet doing this - all the gas going in and out of your suit is going to mess up the thermal systems. I'd spend at least an hour doing this. The time will pass like nothing.

After about an hour, your brain will begin to help you "drive the suit". If you're still feeling uncomfortable, call it a day, rest up, and do the drill again in a day or two. Meanwhile, your brain will be busy wiring up to help balance you. Equilibrium is its natural state and the human brain is great at finding and maintaining it. You just have to give your system enough inputs so that it can figure out the new physics of the environment you've put it in.

Don't go much deeper until you're confident that you are driving the suit and not the other way around.

RyanD

[LCF]

Very good posts from Tom Nic and RSDancey!

I started out using the suit, as taught, had tons of trouble controlling it. For Fundies, I went to the "20 foot squeeze", which wasn't very comfortable, but gave me MUCH better control. I dove with minimum gas in the suit for a couple of years, and used the wing for buoyancy, until I took a Helitrox class this spring where the instructor really wanted us to do it the other way (to the point of making us practice with a disabled wing). I discovered I was warmer, more comfortable, and that I now had the control to manage the suit mostly without thinking about it. It's MUCH nicer to have all the gas in the suit, if you are going to use your hands for something (like running line).

I don't know anyone that doesn't use them in a dry-suit.

I know a lot of people who don't use them, including me. Most of those people, however, do use fins which are negative (including me). They're not a bad thing to play with at the beginning, though, if you're having a lot of trouble. It's worthwhile to learn to dive without them, if your gear configuration will permit it, simply because one day you're either going to forget to pack them, or one or both are going to fall off (had both happen to me!)

[camerone]

Another point, so, ankle weights are a crutch and fin keepers aren't? How is this possible?

Yup. A rudimentary application of root cause analysis will show you the answer. Ask the question of "why are feet floaty?"

Feet are floaty because there's too much gas in the lower portion of the suit (or you have buoyant fins, but, although they exist, they're a little weird). Adding ankle weights doesn't solve the real problem, it only masks the symptoms.

The right solution is feet/boots/legs cut so that they fit properly. That's not always possible, but it is ideal; for instance, my custom drysuit fits like a glove, because I had it measured to my body's shape and specifications and there's no need for anything else.

If you have to make do with a stock sized suit, or you rent/borrow, then fin keepers or gaiters will compress the dead space and solve the problem of too much gas where it doesn't belong, fixing the root cause of the floatiness.

Does that mean that this particular person needs a "crutch" to dive or doesn't know how to or hasn't invested the time needed to learn how to properly weight themselves? Come on. Get real. What kind of a statement is that?

The cynic in me says, only semi-facetiously, "Bad habits take a long time to break?"

I've had people coming to me for job interviews with 20+ years of experience under their belts, and I have kids just out of college who can perform better than they can, work harder than they would, and provide more value to my team/org. I'm sure your friend's a nice guy, but 100 dives, 1000, or 10,000 means absolutely squat for me; experience, as far as I'm concerned, is only as good to me as their last performance (or dive.)

[Diver_C]

I don't know anyone that doesn't use them in a dry-suit. Gaiters can also help if you are in a shell suit.

I wear a shell suit. I don't use ankle weights or gaiters, and never have. I don't know if it makes a difference but I do use Jet Fins, which are negatively buoyant, and I use White's version of Rock Boots, which do keep gas from going into my feet. I love wearing boots over my suit booties.

I like Ryan's ideas! [RSDancey]

[defied]

Commercial diving view...

I had harnesses with no BC bladder options. When I dove dry, it was nice to control them to make my midwater jobs easier, however I always thought "Gee, it'd be nice to have a BC/wing for this shite." when I was upside down, watching my steel toes boots drop past my head, as my oversized leggings attempted to tug me heavenward. Learning to control it is a great idea, as I firmly believe you need to know the ins and outs of all of your gear, but daily usage ultimately comes down to what you prefer. I'd say if you have a wing, use the wing, as it won't put air in your boots.

I use ankle weights, however, if the fins are heavy enough, you shouldn't need weights (Credit goes to Wally at Tacoma Scuba for yelling that at me, when I asked what you scooby doos prefer). 0]

Cheers!
D(B)