"rebreather for sport divers"

[spatman]

"Forget everything you might have heard about pO2, scrubber life and oxygen cells.
Relax and let the unit handle the controls. All you have to do is breathe."



http://www.poseidon.se/DL_files/Brochure07_lowres.pdf
http://www.poseidon.se/DL_files/MK6_White_Paper_v2.pdf

comments, anyone?

[Joshua Smith]

I know, I know- I want to rip into this one really bad- but it was designed by two pretty exceptional individuals- Bill Stone and Richard Pyle. Because they're behind it, I'm gonna keep my mouth shut and wait. Maybe it really is as great as they say.

[camerone]

I want to rip into this one really bad- but it was designed by two pretty exceptional individuals- Bill Stone and Richard Pyle.

I'm not going to comment until I've seen one up close. Still, it makes me cry compared to what the original CisLunars _were_ back in the day...

[Dmitchell]

I looked at it at DEMA. It's been around for a couple years now but is finally in production. It may well in fact work and work fine for it's market.

But yes, it goes against almost everything current CCR divers believe in.

It uses a prepacked scrubber which the user is told will last the same amount of time as the O2 supply. I suspect that is a very conservative figure but it should hopefully keep folks out of trouble. I believe that the cost per dive will be more than my KISS.

The ironic thing is that the guy who showed it to us was already talking about guys modifying them to go trimix. That's where it gets dicey.

Dave

[smike]

Any idea on the initial price?

Mike

[60south]

Y'all sound like the die-hards that slammed the SPG when it first came out. And then the BCD. And then the computer. And then nitrox...

[Dusty2]

Y'all sound like the die-hards that slammed the SPG when it first came out. And then the BCD. And then the computer. And then nitrox...

Yep they do Is anyone surprised?? They also said man couldn't fly??

It looks pretty damn awesome to me and I'm sure if a company like Poseidon is marketing it it must be pretty well tested and risk free. It did take them almost 2 years to get around to releasing it and the risk to the company is enormous should it fail.

I do agree though that I'll take the wait and see approach myself. For me on one hand it sounds exciting but on the other it's still all voodoo magic. :hello2:

[Alex]

So I'm not sure exactly how this all works but let's say for the sake of the argument I'm "magically" at 60 feet... How long can I stay there (magically not worrying about deco) if I'm "magically" back on land.

What I'm trying to figure out in case you can't tell is how long can an average diver spend at a given depth. It says the scrubber will last longer than the O2 ...but how long is that? Is it basically designed to be used for 2 or 3 30 minute dives to 60 feet and then recharged?

[Dmitchell]

Hypothetically, it would be like breathing 50% nitrox at 60' so you could stay down for quite awhile at that depth without Deco. I believe the scrubber is supposed to last about 3 hours. The O2 tank should be good for about that as well.

Dm

[camerone]

Y'all sound like the die-hards that slammed the SPG when it first came out. And then the BCD. And then the computer. And then nitrox...

I'm more like the guy who doesn't like things dumbed down for the masses... nor being anywhere near people that need things dumbed down to that level.

As an example, I hate the idiot light on my car's dashboard that says "low oil", or "low battery." They're less informative, don't tell me trends, and by the time they light up, it's too late to be useful. I much preferred the voltage gauge and oil pressure/temp indicators that cars used to come with.

In that vein, my main complaint is around their decision to use a hokey "automatic sensor verification", adding additional solenoids to the unit, and removing one of the oxygen cells in the process. It's the rebreather equivalent of an idiot light on the dashboard... The accepted standard of three sensors and the ability to do a dil/o2 flush and self validation is not rocket science; the math needed to do it in your head is elementary-school grade 2 level multiplication. If that's not a skill you can learn, then you don't belong on a CCR. Frankly, I'm not convinced by the logic in their white paper; I think there's some seriously faulty assumptions made and they're pushing simplicity over safety and then lying about it.

When I'm diving one of my rebreathers, I like to know everything that's going on with it; the eCCR controller is a backup for my brain, only.

[60south]

You know I'm just pulling your chain, right? I totally understand wanting to be in control of the decisions and knowing what's going on inside the black box.


But equipment evolves. Generally speaking, I've noticed that making things simpler often results in improved safety. Maybe that's the case here, maybe not. But it's worth a look.

Full disclosure: I'm not a rebreather diver. However, I am curious about something that Dmitchell said...

But yes, it goes against almost everything current CCR divers believe in.

What, exactly do CCR divers believe in? I was under the impression that people chose a CCR for a specific purpose, not because of a belief system. Comments?

[Fishstiq]

But yes, it goes against almost everything current CCR divers believe in.

How so? I mean, what do current CCR divers believe in that this goes against? Forgive me if my question sounds ignorant, but I don't know the difference between this and current CCR's.

To me, this thing looks like a super-duper nitrox mixer. I understand that you rebreath your gas, increasing your useable resources, and I understand that it keeps your PPO2 at a constant level under inconsistent conditions ("dynamic" I think someone called it...?), increasing your NDL's. So what does it use for dillutent?

My basic understanding is that it's for long dives at recreational depths, but not for super deep diving like a current CCR. Is that basically right, or am I way off again?

[Fishstiq]

You know I'm just pulling your chain, right? I totally understand wanting to be in control of the decisions and knowing what's going on inside the black box.


But equipment evolves. Generally speaking, I've noticed that making things simpler often results in improved safety. Maybe that's the case here, maybe not. But it's worth a look.

Full disclosure: I'm not a rebreather diver. However, I am curious about something that Dmitchell said...

But yes, it goes against almost everything current CCR divers believe in.

What, exactly do CCR divers believe in? I was under the impression that people chose a CCR for a specific purpose, not because of a belief system. Comments?

It would appear we posted at similar times. Great mnds, eh?

[camerone]

To me, this thing looks like a super-duper nitrox mixer. I understand that you rebreath your gas, increasing your useable resources, and I understand that it keeps your PPO2 at a constant level under inconsistent conditions ("dynamic" I think someone called it...?), increasing your NDL's. So what does it use for dillutent?

My basic understanding is that it's for long dives at recreational depths, but not for super deep diving like a current CCR. Is that basically right, or am I way off again?

Nope, you're spot on. All rebreathers are basically super-duper nitrox mixers. You have some amount of nitrogen (+/- helium) that you essentially reuse throughout the dive, and the unit makes up for the oxygen that you metabolize. Instead of wasting the fact that your body only uses 0.05 atmospheres (note that I didn't say 5%) of the O2 each time you breathe in and out, it gives you another chance to suck some of it down again, too. You pick the partial pressure of the mix you're willing to live with (generally 1.3 atm), and the unit does the rest to keep you there, basically.

This thing was built for air dil only. Supposedly, there's some mods to open it up to more, but it'd definitely aimed at the "sport" market, and designed to be as simple as O/C. I'll point out that Drager did essentially the same thing in the mid-90's with the Ray. It was a collossal failure, but homebuilders like the parts for turning into more useful machines. It was only SCR, but truthfully, that was a better option 10 years ago.

I think there's this myth going around the CCRs are for "super deep" diving. That's not true... witness the other thread that Josh was putting together about what he has to go through (another O2 bottle, different reg, and plumbing) to take his unit beyond 250'. CCRs are more about extended time underwater, optimial deco, maximization of NDL (if you're doing sport depths), and better marine life interactions. Deep just happens to be an area when all of those essentially come together, given the high gas consumption at depth, along with the need to carry multiple mixes to clean up on the way up.

[Fishstiq]

I think there's this myth going around the CCRs are for "super deep" diving. That's not true... witness the other thread that Josh was putting together about what he has to go through (another O2 bottle, different reg, and plumbing) to take his unit beyond 250'. CCRs are more about extended time underwater, optimial deco, maximization of NDL (if you're doing sport depths), and better marine life interactions. Deep just happens to be an area when all of those essentially come together, given the high gas consumption at depth, along with the need to carry multiple mixes to clean up on the way up.

So doesn't this rig accomplish these goals? It extends time underwater, it optimizes deco, it maximises NDL's, and it allows for better marine life interactions. I don't understand then why peoples first reaction is to "tear into" it. That seems a bit agressive. Sure you can argue safety, but you could argue that on any CCR. Non-divers constantly argue the safety of O/C!! To those who have a negative opinion of this product, why? Again, I don't totally understand these things, but it seems that this product does what it was designes/intended to do. Kinda like "CCR Jr."

I'm not trying to be arguemenative here, I just want to understand what the "cons" are.

EDIT- I understand not liking the idea of things being oversimplified to the point where people end up doing things they have no business doing.

[Dusty2]

But yes, it goes against almost everything current CCR divers believe in.

How so? I mean, what do current CCR divers believe in that this goes against? Forgive me if my question sounds ignorant, but I don't know the difference between this and current CCR's.

To me, this thing looks like a super-duper nitrox mixer. I understand that you rebreath your gas, increasing your useable resources, and I understand that it keeps your PPO2 at a constant level under inconsistent conditions ("dynamic" I think someone called it...?), increasing your NDL's. So what does it use for dillutent?

My basic understanding is that it's for long dives at recreational depths, but not for super deep diving like a current CCR. Is that basically right, or am I way off again?

I am not a CCR person but I understand enough to know where they are comming from.

What they are saying is Rebreathers are not for the average rec diver. The main thing that goes against everything CCR divers know is the low tech level "just pop in a cartridge and go" or the just dive it and forget it mindset

Rebreathers to date are highly technical and potentially dangerous. You must be fully trained on the unit you are using and know exactly what is going on in every process and be fully aware of the status of all the components at all times. Rebreather can and do kill without warning if you get lax. It is a very "hands on" processes that requires a stringent per dive routine as well as a post dive one. I have a friend that has one and I think he spends more time with the unit on land than he does in the water.

[Dmitchell]

Since some of you guys seemed to turn my quote around as if it was some sort of cultish remark:

I believe in having:

1. The skills to do the dive I'm doing
2. A complete understanding of the machine that's wrapped around me and what it is doing
3. Having the tools I need to determine that said machine is about to kill me.
Based on current technology; for me that means - 3 or 4 O2 Cells, and redundant readout of those cells, a scrubber that I packed. O2 and Dill that I've analyzed and a unit that I've assembled myself.

I want to see my O2 cells and the voltages and I want to be able to watch what they are doing. The current O2 cell technology to put it bluntly SUCKS. They are very unreliable, I've had several fail in the last couple months. At least with 3 cells and the ability to see what they are doing and how they are trending, I can make my own decisions.

This is a trick little unit and used properly, it might actually work. But it is literally so dumbed down that it's IMO scary. For Instance: there is a picture of a diver on the paddle and when you see bubbles around the diver you are supposed to switch to Open Circuit. Geez I hope I can make that out in the dark with hypercapnia. Why not a Giant Flashing Skull and Crossbones? at least it would get your attention better.

I'm sure they will come out with a training program for this thing and maybe given that it's going to be limited to recreational depths it won't be that big of a deal. Only time will tell.

DM

[camerone]

1. The skills to do the dive I'm doing

To me, that's also a currency requirement. I'm honestly of the belief that to safely dive a CCR, you need to be on the thing a LOT...like at least every couple of weeks. They're not for the market that goes and gets wet in the tropics once a year, which is part of the target market (if you read the brochure.)

2. A complete understanding of the machine that's wrapped around me and what it is doing

I don't climb in the helicopter to go flying without a thorough preflight, to the point that I look at each and every saftey wire and mark on critical bolts, sample fuel, check oil, check the gauges, watch the clutch disengage when I chop the throttle, validate the low rotor rpm alarm before I pull to a hover, etc. After all, it's my life support when I'm in the air.

Why would I do anything less with my life support when I'm under water? Why would you possibly want to abstract away the detail from me? There's good UI design which can reduce task loading, if that's the concern, but you do not want to remove my ability to access useful information in time of need.

3. Having the tools I need to determine that said machine is about to kill me.
Based on current technology; for me that means - 3 or 4 O2 Cells, and redundant readout of those cells, a scrubber that I packed. O2 and Dill that I've analyzed and a unit that I've assembled myself.

I want to see my O2 cells and the voltages and I want to be able to watch what they are doing. The current O2 cell technology to put it bluntly SUCKS. They are very unreliable, I've had several fail in the last couple months. At least with 3 cells and the ability to see what they are doing and how they are trending, I can make my own decisions.

I dove the 3 cell category for four years now. I just added a fourth cell, attached to my VR3, to cross check the two computers onboard that are validating the integral cells and one another. O2 cells have done some strange things for me, even brand new out of the bag (well, "warmed up", if you will.) Not good.

I don't mind the extend-air canisters. I don't see the need for them, don't like the price, and don't like their reduced efficiency compared to granular scrubber, but I don't have a problem with 'em... it's just a packaging/form factor difference.

I'm sure they will come out with a training program for this thing and maybe given that it's going to be limited to recreational depths it won't be that big of a deal. Only time will tell.

...or we might get a little chlorine in the gene pool

I'm still wondering what's going on with the two very well respected folks behind it, and why they're headed this direction.

[Joshua Smith]

But yes, it goes against almost everything current CCR divers believe in.

How so? I mean, what do current CCR divers believe in that this goes against? Forgive me if my question sounds ignorant, but I don't know the difference between this and current CCR's.

To me, this thing looks like a super-duper nitrox mixer. I understand that you rebreath your gas, increasing your useable resources, and I understand that it keeps your PPO2 at a constant level under inconsistent conditions ("dynamic" I think someone called it...?), increasing your NDL's. So what does it use for dillutent?

My basic understanding is that it's for long dives at recreational depths, but not for super deep diving like a current CCR. Is that basically right, or am I way off again?

Yeah, you're right- this, and all, CCRs are super-duper Nitrox mixers. This one " goes against almost everything current CCR divers believe in" because the whole sales pitch is:

"Relax. Just breathe. Look at the pretty fish. Everything's totally fine. OOo- look! More pretty fish. Poseidon Mark 6 is now adding a soothing lavendar scent. with just a hint of rose hips, to your breathing loop in order to enhance your breathing pleasure. Swim happilly in circles. Poseidon Mark 6 is now playing some soft jazz- unless you'd prefer Enya? Relax.....pretty fish.....Enya......Lavendar....."

After a solid year of CCR diving, all I can really tell you is that.........this goes against almost everything current CCR divers believe in. I have actually had some serene, even transcendental, dives on my Meg- it can be incredibly peacefull. But.....well, not THAT relaxed. How relaxed do you get driving a motorcycle at 80 mph? Might be fine on a long straightaway, but things can go horribly wrong, really fast.

As I said in my first post- Bill Stone and Richard Pyle are two extremely exceptional individuals. If they're behind this, it's well worth taking a close look at. But I'm having trouble swallowing this one. It looks like a recipe for disaster from here. But maybe it isn't.

[Joshua Smith]

Since some of you guys seemed to turn my quote around as if it was some sort of cultish remark:

I believe in having:

1. The skills to do the dive I'm doing
2. A complete understanding of the machine that's wrapped around me and what it is doing
3. Having the tools I need to determine that said machine is about to kill me.
Based on current technology; for me that means - 3 or 4 O2 Cells, and redundant readout of those cells, a scrubber that I packed. O2 and Dill that I've analyzed and a unit that I've assembled myself.

I want to see my O2 cells and the voltages and I want to be able to watch what they are doing. The current O2 cell technology to put it bluntly SUCKS. They are very unreliable, I've had several fail in the last couple months. At least with 3 cells and the ability to see what they are doing and how they are trending, I can make my own decisions.

This is a trick little unit and used properly, it might actually work. But it is literally so dumbed down that it's IMO scary. For Instance: there is a picture of a diver on the paddle and when you see bubbles around the diver you are supposed to switch to Open Circuit. Geez I hope I can make that out in the dark with hypercapnia. Why not a Giant Flashing Skull and Crossbones? at least it would get your attention better.

I'm sure they will come out with a training program for this thing and maybe given that it's going to be limited to recreational depths it won't be that big of a deal. Only time will tell.

DM

LMAO! Good one, Dave! I totally agree. Nobody but me packs my parachute.

[airsix]

I think there are always concerns and resistance when barriers to entry are lowered.
Those who got there the hard way might feel slighted when someone creates a shortcut for the masses. We value things by what it costs to achieve them. I'm not necessarily talking about monetary cost. If an achievement requires a lot determination, learning, commitment, discipline... we place a high value on it, because only the really serious and devoted person will achieve it. The achievement feels cheapened when someone comes along and offers an achievement-for-dummies version for a few bills and a weekend class. Especially when we feel the field is about to be watered down with lower standards and unskilled newbs. I think that's what a lot of this is about: If products like this succeed there will be a flood of new CCR divers who didn't/won't achieve the level of commitment, skill, and knowledge required of CCR divers today.

I still might want one though.

-Ben

[Dmitchell]

Ben,

I believe that in the not to distant future, CCR will become as or nearly as mainstream as OC. Given the worlds progression of things it's only logical. I'm a huge proponent of CCR and think that it's the only way to go!

That said, I still dive OC when situations dictate (hard working dives, teaching, quick inspections, body recovery, etc)

Maybe it's just my style but I know the ins and outs of every piece of equipment I own, I can explain to you how every piece works and why, be it OC or CCR.

I believe that any diver should be able to do that regardless of the equipment configuration. If the piece of equipment is too difficult to understand or service then it's too complicated. In this case, most of the target market are not going to know the whats or hows, just that it works. That is scary to me.

Dave

[Joshua Smith]

If products like this succeed there will be a flood of new CCR divers who didn't/won't achieve the level of commitment, skill, and knowledge required of CCR divers today.

I still might want one though.

-Ben

That's all true, Ben. And more power to them- if this thing succeeds, they will have captured lightening in a bottle. They will have made a relatively safe rebreather. It will galvanize the industry, and cause many heads to turn. Most of us simply can't believe it's that good. Sure, I'll snort at the newbs who flock to the new recreational rebreather classes, if it happens- and I'll tell war stories about "back in the day." But I'll also be really stoked to take the next generation of safer CCRs down a lot deeper than the recreational set will go. I just can't quite believe it's really real. It seems almost like someone has finally invented a motorcycle that you can safely drive naked while drunk, as long as you don't go faster than 65 mph. Seriously- it's that radical of a claim.

[dwashbur]

[It seems almost like someone has finally invented a motorcycle that you can safely drive naked while drunk, as long as you don't go faster than 65 mph.

Are you saying that's NOT how it's done??????????

[H20doctor]

If it works and its safe then Buy it !!!! If it don't ? Then spend 9K on a real rebreather ... Tech has enabled us divers to stay underwater longer have you forgotten that in all this mumbo jumbo of enjoying the underwater world ? ... I love you all peace out my homies !!!