Diver accident at Redondo 5-15

[Nwbrewer]

(And who the hell throws rocks at their students?!? Where did that come from?)

I've seen it at Redondo. There is a group from out of the area that dives there for their cert dives. I've personally seen rock throwing as well as verbal abuse of the students. Not necessary as part of learning SCUBA in my opinion.

Dave

WTF is with all the new posters showing up for this thread with all sorts of "facts"? If you're going to show up, and start stating things as fact, please do the rest of us a favor and wander over to the introductions forum and tell us who you are. This is a local board, most of the people on here know each other, if not directly, than with 1 or 2 degrees of seperation (friends of friends) It makes this board a unique, and usually fairly respectful place. Accusing some nameless shop of assault without anything to buck up who YOU are is worse than useless. This isn't Scubaboard.

[spatman]

ditto what jake said.

interesting that 5 posters in this thread are new to this site, all joining since this thread started and none of whom have introduced themselves anywhere.

[kdupreez]

So, A few questions answered should help clear thing up and will help ALL of us understand the incident better and learn from it and try to modify our OW checkout logistics/styles in order to help us improve the chances of this not happening again.

1. How many student divers were in the water and on the line?
2. How many certified and in teaching status assistants were in the water and on the line?
3. Where/How were the assistant situated?
4. Was there a training line at depth for students to hold and dive float?
5. What was the Depth?
6. What was the REAL viz??
7. Did all Instructors and staff have decent primary flash lights during the dive??
8. What was the OW skill being evaluated at the time of the incident?
9. Who was performing the skill and who was evaluating the skill?
10. Why did the student ("son of the victim") bolt for the surface? (lost reg??)
11. What were the other students doing during this time?? were they also performing skills??
12. Where was the Instructor-buddy at the time of the incident?
13. Why did the victim lose her reg?? was she also performing a skill??
14. Were the students briefed on "lost diver" situation before the dive??
15. What did everyone else (students and staff) in the class do during the silt-out??

given your experience in the situation, what have you learnt through this incident that you would like to share with other instructors to help us all prevent these types of situations?? i.e. staff arrangement, student arrangement, amount of divers in the water at the same time? briefings on procedures/expectations ? Extra equipment you can suggest?

Again, not trying to "attack" here, I am trying to understand the incident and learn from it. have regular classes of 6-8 people in the area (as many instructors here) and anything that can be learnt from this is good.

[Grateful Diver]

(And who the hell throws rocks at their students?!? Where did that come from?)

I've seen it at Redondo. There is a group from out of the area that dives there for their cert dives. I've personally seen rock throwing as well as verbal abuse of the students. Not necessary as part of learning SCUBA in my opinion.

Dave

Wouldn't be a certain group from Idaho by any chance ??? I've seen some pretty weird behavior from that gang at other dive sites (Keystone and Sund Rock) ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[Grateful Diver]

(And who the hell throws rocks at their students?!? Where did that come from?)

I've seen it at Redondo. There is a group from out of the area that dives there for their cert dives. I've personally seen rock throwing as well as verbal abuse of the students. Not necessary as part of learning SCUBA in my opinion.

Dave

WTF is with all the new posters showing up for this thread with all sorts of "facts"? If you're going to show up, and start stating things as fact, please do the rest of us a favor and wander over to the introductions forum and tell us who you are. This is a local board, most of the people on here know each other, if not directly, than with 1 or 2 degrees of seperation (friends of friends) It makes this board a unique, and usually fairly respectful place. Accusing some nameless shop of assault without anything to buck up who YOU are is worse than useless. This isn't Scubaboard.

I've seen some strange shit like that ... although not at Redondo.

You know who I am.

And I post regularly on ScubaBoard ... so why drag them into it? Is there some sort of forum "contest" going on that I don't know about?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[Raydar]

(And who the hell throws rocks at their students?!? Where did that come from?)

I've seen it at Redondo. There is a group from out of the area that dives there for their cert dives. I've personally seen rock throwing as well as verbal abuse of the students. Not necessary as part of learning SCUBA in my opinion.

Dave

Wouldn't be a certain group from Idaho by any chance ??? I've seen some pretty weird behavior from that gang at other dive sites (Keystone and Sund Rock) ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Hey, if you drove for 8 hours only to discover bad viz, wouldn't you want to throw something?

[Joshua Smith]

(And who the hell throws rocks at their students?!? Where did that come from?)

I've seen it at Redondo. There is a group from out of the area that dives there for their cert dives. I've personally seen rock throwing as well as verbal abuse of the students. Not necessary as part of learning SCUBA in my opinion.

Dave

Wouldn't be a certain group from Idaho by any chance ??? I've seen some pretty weird behavior from that gang at other dive sites (Keystone and Sund Rock) ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Hey, if you drove for 8 hours only to discover bad viz, wouldn't you want to throw something?

Well, sure, but 40' of viz is great. Maybe they were throwing rocks because they were so happy about it?

[Nwbrewer]

(And who the hell throws rocks at their students?!? Where did that come from?)

I've seen it at Redondo. There is a group from out of the area that dives there for their cert dives. I've personally seen rock throwing as well as verbal abuse of the students. Not necessary as part of learning SCUBA in my opinion.

Dave

WTF is with all the new posters showing up for this thread with all sorts of "facts"? If you're going to show up, and start stating things as fact, please do the rest of us a favor and wander over to the introductions forum and tell us who you are. This is a local board, most of the people on here know each other, if not directly, than with 1 or 2 degrees of seperation (friends of friends) It makes this board a unique, and usually fairly respectful place. Accusing some nameless shop of assault without anything to buck up who YOU are is worse than useless. This isn't Scubaboard.

I've seen some strange shit like that ... although not at Redondo.

You know who I am.

And I post regularly on ScubaBoard ... so why drag them into it? Is there some sort of forum "contest" going on that I don't know about?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

My apologies Bob, I was referring to the anonymity that most other online scuba forums provide which often seems to lead to common instances of internet bravado. Scubaboard is probably the most widely recognized forum so I used it as an example. No offense intended.

[airsix]

Wouldn't be a certain group from Idaho by any chance ??? I've seen some pretty weird behavior from that gang at other dive sites (Keystone and Sund Rock) ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

It's been years since my escape, but I still remember what it was like (Idaho). I hate to say it, but these accusations are plausible.

-Ben

ps - Many thanks to all of you who've accepted me and assisted in my ongoing rehabilitation.

[Mongodives]

I'm trully interested in what the "solution" is for incidents such as the one that happened and what LCF and ljjames described in the current vis conditions, if its something other than doing 1:1.

[Grateful Diver]

I'm trully interested in what the "solution" is for incidents such as the one that happened and what LCF and ljjames described in the current vis conditions, if its something other than doing 1:1.

It's just not that hard. When visibility is bad enough to make maintaining control of your students difficult, you throw a thumb, regroup on the surface and say "not today". I've done is a few times ... even with some folks who were students of mine who are probably reading this thread ... and I rarely had more than a 2:1 ratio in my classes.

You simply do not compromise the safety of your students ... ever ... not for any reason.

Part of being an instructor is knowing how to use good judgment. And besides, there's a lesson there for the students too ... which is knowing when to say "there's another day to dive". We're supposed to be teaching them that ... and leading by example is a great method for teaching it.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[kdupreez]

What I typically do in low viz, is have an assistant on the surface/float with students, another assistant brings down 2 divers at a time for skills..

so I run through all skills with 2 divers at a time at depth, 1 diver doing skills with an assistant holding on to / watching the 2nd diver.. when they both completed, they go up and we fetch the next 2 divers.

Extreme low viz, you call the dive.. period.. go for a beer/coffee and come back next time.

[rjarnold]

How many instructors tell their students what to do if someone else bolts to the surface and the instructor has to leave them? If these are plausible scenarios (and obviously they are, as seen here, and even myself being the 'awesome' pool student that bolted to the surface 3x and never wanted to dive again), then students should know what might happen and what to do in those instances. I wish I would have been better instructed on what 'could happen' (lacking in both of my OW classes, neither taught in the PNW btw), so that I might have had an idea on how to properly respond. Obviously you can't go over everything that could go wrong, but how about the more common situations?

[mz53480]

... and leading by example is a great method for teaching it....

... what to do if someone else bolts to the surface and the instructor has to leave them?...

wait 1minute (if remaining air allows), then up?

[ljjames]

I'm trully interested in what the "solution" is for incidents such as the one that happened and what LCF and ljjames described in the current vis conditions, if its something other than doing 1:1.

historically i always have at least one active, insured AI/DM per two students, and someone on shore as beachmaster ready to jump in the water with snorkeling gear if assistance is needed (this is usually a DM/AI or at minimum someone enrolled in leadership program). I also prefer to team teach with a second instructor. That way there is always someone to ferry students up and down for ascents/descents and no student is EVER on the bottom without supervision.

THAT is a large part of we have a "Leadership" pathway to becoming an instructor. i had to log a couple hundred dives assisting classes as an AI/DM before my primary instructor would give his blessing for my enrollment into ITC. ya, some might see it as instructors taking advantage of the AI/DM, but i've always compensated my team and consider them an integral part of scuba diving education. I will not teach without an assistant.

in this particular case, i was helping out another instructor, i did not have my 'regular' team, so it was the perfect time for Murphy to come play...

[Mongodives]

Thanks for the responses to my question, amazing how the discourse became more productive for all.

[elmer fudd]

WTF is with all the new posters showing up for this thread with all sorts of "facts"? If you're going to show up, and start stating things as fact, please do the rest of us a favor and wander over to the introductions forum and tell us who you are. This is a local board, most of the people on here know each other, if not directly, than with 1 or 2 degrees of seperation (friends of friends) It makes this board a unique, and usually fairly respectful place. Accusing some nameless shop of assault without anything to buck up who YOU are is worse than useless. This isn't Scubaboard.

Well, I'm one of the newbies, but I don't think I've really made any accusations or assertions here. I've been a somewhat active poster over on SB under the same name, so if you're really interested you can read a couple hundred of my opinions. I wouldn't expect to learn much about diving from them though. I'm one of those intermediate divers that's starting to become more and more aware of my shortcomings with every dive.

[Grateful Diver]

How many instructors tell their students what to do if someone else bolts to the surface and the instructor has to leave them? If these are plausible scenarios (and obviously they are, as seen here, and even myself being the 'awesome' pool student that bolted to the surface 3x and never wanted to dive again), then students should know what might happen and what to do in those instances. I wish I would have been better instructed on what 'could happen' (lacking in both of my OW classes, neither taught in the PNW btw), so that I might have had an idea on how to properly respond. Obviously you can't go over everything that could go wrong, but how about the more common situations?

I remember once neglecting to tell a student what to do if a big-arsed sea lion swam up and stuck itself in her face ...

I'm surprised she didn't ...

... Bob (Grateful DIver)

[rjarnold]

How many instructors tell their students what to do if someone else bolts to the surface and the instructor has to leave them? If these are plausible scenarios (and obviously they are, as seen here, and even myself being the 'awesome' pool student that bolted to the surface 3x and never wanted to dive again), then students should know what might happen and what to do in those instances. I wish I would have been better instructed on what 'could happen' (lacking in both of my OW classes, neither taught in the PNW btw), so that I might have had an idea on how to properly respond. Obviously you can't go over everything that could go wrong, but how about the more common situations?

I remember once neglecting to tell a student what to do if a big-arsed sea lion swam up and stuck itself in her face ...

I'm surprised she didn't ...

... Bob (Grateful DIver)

A big-arsed sea lion with :luv: in its eyes no less!

[dwashbur]

Having served as a DM for several classes in limited visibility, I can't help wondering how the person assigned to that student managed to lose track of her even in a silt cloud. I always did my best to stay within arm's reach of "my" student precisely because we were on a silty bottom, and twice had a silt cloud happen. As quick as I saw the silt coming up I grabbed onto the student and guided them out of the silt to a place where we could see a little better. This is not to say "hail me, I'm good," it's what I was taught to do during my DM course. So the question becomes, where was the instructor or DM/whatever assigned to this student? How far away from the student were they, and why? And if they had a fair idea that the student was in the silt cloud, how did they manage to lose her so completely that another person unassociated with the class had to find her?

Someone can accuse me of bashing if they want, but these are questions that need to be answered. Part of the review process is figuring out what we can all do to ensure that this NEVER happens again.

[Grateful Diver]

Someone can accuse me of bashing if they want, but these are questions that need to be answered. Part of the review process is figuring out what we can all do to ensure that this NEVER happens again.

Yes, they are questions that need to be answered ... but, realistically, not in here.

Having been on the receiving end of what a lawyer can do to words typed on a public forum, there's no way in hell I'd be posting on this or any other board the details of a diving accident involving myself. That's just asking for trouble.

As I said previously, I hope ... and I believe ... that the dive shop employees involved in this are thoroughly discussing amongst themselves what went wrong, why, and how to make sure it doesn't happen again.

But they owe us nothing ... and frankly, I'd be surprised if any of them responded to this thread. The litigious nature of our society dictates that the less said in public about such things, the better ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[Grateful Diver]

How many instructors tell their students what to do if someone else bolts to the surface and the instructor has to leave them? If these are plausible scenarios (and obviously they are, as seen here, and even myself being the 'awesome' pool student that bolted to the surface 3x and never wanted to dive again), then students should know what might happen and what to do in those instances. I wish I would have been better instructed on what 'could happen' (lacking in both of my OW classes, neither taught in the PNW btw), so that I might have had an idea on how to properly respond. Obviously you can't go over everything that could go wrong, but how about the more common situations?

I remember once neglecting to tell a student what to do if a big-arsed sea lion swam up and stuck itself in her face ...

I'm surprised she didn't ...

... Bob (Grateful DIver)

A big-arsed sea lion with :luv: in its eyes no less!

Smart sea lion ... of the three of us, you were the best looking ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[dwashbur]

Someone can accuse me of bashing if they want, but these are questions that need to be answered. Part of the review process is figuring out what we can all do to ensure that this NEVER happens again.

Yes, they are questions that need to be answered ... but, realistically, not in here.

Having been on the receiving end of what a lawyer can do to words typed on a public forum, there's no way in hell I'd be posting on this or any other board the details of a diving accident involving myself. That's just asking for trouble.

As I said previously, I hope ... and I believe ... that the dive shop employees involved in this are thoroughly discussing amongst themselves what went wrong, why, and how to make sure it doesn't happen again.

But they owe us nothing ... and frankly, I'd be surprised if any of them responded to this thread. The litigious nature of our society dictates that the less said in public about such things, the better ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Good point.

[SolarWind]

(And who the hell throws rocks at their students?!? Where did that come from?)

I've seen it at Redondo. There is a group from out of the area that dives there for their cert dives. I've personally seen rock throwing as well as verbal abuse of the students. Not necessary as part of learning SCUBA in my opinion.

Dave

WTF is with all the new posters showing up for this thread with all sorts of "facts"? If you're going to show up, and start stating things as fact, please do the rest of us a favor and wander over to the introductions forum and tell us who you are. This is a local board, most of the people on here know each other, if not directly, than with 1 or 2 degrees of seperation (friends of friends) It makes this board a unique, and usually fairly respectful place. Accusing some nameless shop of assault without anything to buck up who YOU are is worse than useless. This isn't Scubaboard.

My apologies for missing a point of etiquette. I have posted an intro in that area.

Dave

[SolarWind]

Wouldn't be a certain group from Idaho by any chance ??? I've seen some pretty weird behavior from that gang at other dive sites (Keystone and Sund Rock) ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Bob,

I'm sorry, I do not know the exact shop. My understanding is that they are an SSI shop from Spokane.

Dave