Warplanes in Lake Washington

[John Rawlings]

Grateful Diver recently made his first dive down on one of the great plane wrecks in Lake Washington - a huge 4 engine P4Y-2 Privateer US Navy long-range aircraft. This plane was the Navy version of the famous B-24 Liberator. I'm hoping that Bob will give us his impressions from his dive....one that I'm certain he will never forget!

The nasty muck on the bottom of the lake as well as all of the silt in the water itself make for a low visibility dive, but the sight of a vintage aircraft resting on the bottom is TRULY a sight to see - even if you have to get REALLY close just to tell that it is there!

Here are a few shots that I took on one of my dives on the wreck. The auto-focus on my camera caught absolute HELL trying to function with all of that silt in the water and in the utter blackness. My dive buddy on this dive was Mel Clark, aka "Scubagrunt" here on the NWDC board.

I'm hoping that NWDC members that have dived on this aircraft, or other planes in the lake, will share their descriptions and impressions of their dives. There will be an article by Mel in the next ADM on diving the wreck of a US Navy PV-2 Harpoon - just one of several warplanes discovered in in Lake Washington.

- John

This first shot is of the cockpit:

<a href="" title="Photo Sharing"><img src="http://farm1.static.flickr.com/155/3992 ... 148a_o.jpg" width="700" height="465" alt="DSC_0009a"></a>

This next shot is of Mel next to the huge tail of the aircraft:

<a href="" title="Photo Sharing"><img src="http://farm1.static.flickr.com/186/3992 ... bbec_o.jpg" width="500" height="676" alt="DSC_0021a"></a>

And finally, some of the squadron markings on the side:

<a href="" title="Photo Sharing"><img src="http://farm1.static.flickr.com/175/3992 ... 7ba4_o.jpg" width="750" height="499" alt="DSC_0031a"></a>

[Joshua Smith]

That is sooooo cool. I can't wait to dive that one. And all of the other ones as well! I understand we have several other WWII airplanes in Lake Washington. I really, really want to see them. As a kid, I built models of many different WWII warplanes. When I'm certified to go that deep, I'm definitely gonna check them out!

[Tangfish]

Great shots! What depth is the plane at?

[John Rawlings]

Great shots! What depth is the plane at?

Thanks for the compliment, Calvin, but, actually, the shots SUCK! I'd love to get some better ones.

The plane is in around 155 FFW.

- John

[DiverDown]

John is there a link to the aircraft "pre crash"? I am a big Military aircraft history fan. My grandfather was a tailgunner on a B-17G in the 8th AF over Germany during WWII. I looked up the numbers on his aircraft and it came up 4 different planes put back together.

[jeff98208]

wicked nice john! nothing like dub ya dub ya 2 planes!

[Sergeant Pepper]

Great pictures John. Bob posted about this previously, but without pictures. Thanks for taking us down.

[Grateful Diver]

John is there a link to the aircraft "pre crash"? I am a big Military aircraft history fan. My grandfather was a tailgunner on a B-17G in the 8th AF over Germany during WWII. I looked up the numbers on his aircraft and it came up 4 different planes put back together.

Here ya go ... http://www.nwrain.com/~newtsuit/recover ... lkwash.htm

You can follow the links provided under each picture to more in-depth descriptions of each plane.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[Grateful Diver]

Great shots! What depth is the plane at?

Thanks for the compliment, Calvin, but, actually, the shots SUCK! I'd love to get some better ones.

The plane is in around 155 FFW.

- John

Well, let me know when you're ready to go get some ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[peo]

There is also information at http://www.scret.org/Privateer/Privateer.htm

SCRET divers dive these planes quite regularly, and they are very pleasant targets to dive. Visibility can be challenging, but diving at the right time of the year can give you some stunning visibility on these targets too.

It is unfortunate that some of these planes get severly damaged by divers. Not pointing any fingers at John nor at Bob (I assume they aren't bad guys), almost all of the planes in Lake Washington show damage in one way or another from divers visiting the planes. Machine guns and/or ordinance has gone missing, the entire tail section of one plane has been torn off recently from what looks suspiciously like an at dragging an anchor into plane to hook it.

Wrecks in general, but in PARTICULAR those in Lake Washington, and VERY MUCH IN PARTICULAR the plane wrecks, are unique. Some are owned by the Navy, and taking anything from them is a serious affair. Even not considering the legal side of this, it's easy to oversee the moral side of this unless you take a step back and think about it.

Many of these wrecks have a very unique historical value. As long as they are sitting on the bottom and not tampered with, that value is preserved. Lake Washington has almost perfect conditions for preserving even these very fragile wrecks for hundreds of years.

The way I look at these wrecks are that they are time capsules, that really are gifts from our generation to a future generation that may decide to learn more about our era from these wrecks. I am one of few people that are privileged to briefly visit these, and it is thus my moral obligation to make sure I don't destroy them.

Excellent examples where you can see this in action, timeshifted, are http://www.vasamuseet.se/Vasamuseet/Om.aspx?lang=en and http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/sunken/

The planes represent an interesting era in the history of the Pacific Northwest. They are also amongst the most fragile things you can find on the bottom of Lake Washington.

Dive safely x 2 -- safely for yourself and safely for the wrecks.

[John Rawlings]

It is unfortunate that some of these planes get severly damaged by divers. Not pointing any fingers at John nor at Bob (I assume they aren't bad guys), almost all of the planes in Lake Washington show damage in one way or another from divers visiting the planes. Machine guns and/or ordinance has gone missing, the entire tail section of one plane has been torn off recently from what looks suspiciously like an at dragging an anchor into plane to hook it.

The way I look at these wrecks are that they are time capsules, that really are gifts from our generation to a future generation that may decide to learn more about our era from these wrecks. I am one of few people that are privileged to briefly visit these, and it is thus my moral obligation to make sure I don't destroy them.

The planes represent an interesting era in the history of the Pacific Northwest. They are also amongst the most fragile things you can find on the bottom of Lake Washington.

Whew! I'm SO glad that we're OK!

Peo - you and I are firmly in agreement.

It is for the very reasons that you cite that I would never give the location coordinates out. If someone wants to dive the wrecks bad enough they can take the time and make the effort to study the historical record and find the the locations through research. Maybe if they do so they will develop a sense for the preservation of the wrecks and not "souvenir hunting".

Additionally, the US Navy takes "great exception" to anyone removing anything from what they legally and morally regard as their property.

By the way, I see that the plane is shown as a PB4Y-2 on the SCRET web site. In reality it is a P4Y-2. When I was researching the history of the aircraft for an article in ADM I discovered that in In 1951 the Navy eliminated the Patrol Bomber category (dropping the "B") and the designation of the Privateers became P4Y-2. Since the aircraft in Lake Washington went down in 1956 (which was the year I was born in Seattle - my folks probably read about the crash on the front page of the Seattle Times!) she would have had the newer designation of P4Y-2.

- John

[RDW]

I have been diving the Lake WA planes for over 25 years now. I never get tired of diving those sites. As a citizen who has spent half of his life involved with the military, the subject of military history (especially local) is very important to me.
Peo wrote that the broken-off tail section from the PV-2 looked "suspicious" and may have been caused by divers. In the case of this particular airplane it was Mother Nature, time and corrosion that did the deed.
Most planes of that era were put together with steel rivets holding the aluminum sections together. This plane is sticking nose down into the mud at about a (rough) 45 degree angle. Steel in water corrodes a heck of lot faster that aluminum. Two days after the 2001 Nisqually earthquake
I was diving on the PV-2. The first thing I saw was the tail section lying on the bottom. The cause of the break is quite obvious when one inspects the the rivet lines and the corrosion of the rivets therein. It was later that week when I was able to dive other sites that had obvious earthquake damage that we came to the conclusion that "a little shaken had been goin' on".
While these sites are in public waters, they are historical artifacts that have legal implication if they are mistreated, damaged, etc under various Fed and State historical laws. Be careful out there. I like to use soft weights for descent/buoy lines when diving around the planes and other wrecks in Lake Washington. It does really help to minimize the potential damage from dive markers.

Now, as far as stealing artifacts goes: A pox on the house of the diver doing these dirty, dastardly deeds! Shame!

Get out and go diving! Dive safe.

[Sounder]

It sure would be great to put a sign down near the plane that asks people not to take things. I don't know whether it'd work, but at least it'd give them something to think about when tempted.

[John Rawlings]

It sure would be great to put a sign down near the plane that asks people not to take things. I don't know whether it'd work, but at least it'd give them something to think about when tempted.

Doubtful.....

To dive on any of the plan wrecks in Lake Washington requires many things - among them are:

1) Knowledge that the planes exist and their historical significance. Just this much knowledge will tell even an extremely stupid person that it is NOT a "good thing" to remove artifacts.

2) Knowledge of the specific locations. This can be obtained in one of two ways - doing your own extensive research to figure out the locations for yourself based on the historical record, or getting them from some OTHER diver that has done the research. Either way you will again get a firm idea of the historical significance of the plane wrecks and you will become aware of the legal and moral arguments for their preservation.

2) An adequate dive boat capable of supporting such dives, with a good depth sounder or sonar equipment.

3) Specialized technical dive equipment, mixed gases, and the training to utilize all of the above.

4) Tools adequate for the removal of artifacts.

5) At least one similar-minded buddy to assist you in your malfeasance.

AND, if you are planning on stealing an artifact or two from one of the planes, something ELSE is required: SECRECY. If anyone, anyone at all, sees you remove an aircraft artifact from the lake the City, County, State and, most notably, the United States Navy will be on you like "stink on sh*t". Your name, and those of your buddies, will become a swear word within the local dive community and you will be a pariah. Not wanting any of this to happen, anyone planning on looting or vandalizing the plane wrecks will be quiet as a mouse about it, (or in this case, a RAT!), before the dive AND after it. You will NEVER be able to show off your artifact for fear that you will be reported.

In other words, you don't just wake up one morning, dive in the lake, and remove an artifact from a plane. It requires a lot of planning, conspiring, effort, cooperation and gear.

Now.....if you were a diver intent on "looting and pillaging" and had planned out all of the above, would YOU be stopped if you arrived secretly on one of the aircraft wrecks and saw a sign like that? I very much doubt it......

People intent on performing an illegal or unethical act are rarely, if ever, swayed by signs that say, "don't do that!".

I'm with my buddy, Randy, on this - the best thing that we as divers can do is to make it completely clear to everyone that such actions are absolutely SHAMEFUL.

- John

[Grateful Diver]

There was an article about this subject in the Seattle Times a couple years ago ... for those who might find it interesting ...

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/l ... ts29m.html

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[Sounder]

You make a good point John. If you took the time to execute the plan, a sign isn't going to prevent it.

[RSdancey]

Doubtful.....

1) Knowledge that the planes exist...

2) Knowledge of the specific locations...

2) An adequate dive boat capable of supporting such dives...

3) Specialized technical dive equipment...

4) Tools adequate for the removal of artifacts....

5) At least one similar-minded buddy to assist you in your malfeasance...

If my knowledge of diving came from reading this board and talking to locals, I'd probably agree with the above.

However, even a brief bit of reading on the history of the sport will turn up numerous examples of dives in FAR more challenging conditions, conducted with MINIMAL gear, by divers with a mindset that anything on the bottom is fair game, and taking stuff from wrecks is just what you do when you go diving.

You only have to go back to the early 1990s to find stories of local divers with not much more than AL80s diving on the wrecks in Lake Washington on air. I'm reasonably sure that my dad knows where they are, and he uses little equipment on the lake but a bass boat and a fish finder -- both of which are common as dirt in this area. I could dive from that boat with ease. And anyone who knows anything about the divers from the Northeast knows that at least some of those buccaneers would take the attitude that what the Navy don't know won't hurt 'em.

Would I do such a dive? No way! Would such a dive be dangerous? Hell yes. Is the vis bad? Absolutely. Is it easy to kick up silt? Sure it is. Is it deep, cold & dark? Yup.

None of those things would stop an even moderately enthusiastic diver bent on getting some "treasure".

Let's hope that the local community stays vigilant, and that such abuse is kept to an absolute minimum. But let's also not kid ourselves about the degree of difficulty.

Ryan

[John Rawlings]

All very true.....I agree with what you say. I, myself, did some dives in the "old days" using AL 80s full of air that today would be regarded as outrageous. But back then that was all we had.

However, let's not omit the original reason for the list above. The list was created to show why a warning sign would not deter someone who was absolutely bent on artifact removal.

Do you believe that a warning sign would fend off such a person? I think not.

Your point that these dives can be done with an absolute minimum only makes THAT point more solid than it was before. Anyone willing to do the dives described in the manner you describe (solo, on air, using an AL 80, etc.) would be even LESS detered by a warning sign. After all, they are already "nucking futs", why should a little ol' warning sign bother them....especially if, as you say, they are "bent on getting some treasure"?

Human beings will choose to risk everything for some things. What those "things" are varies from person to person. Once someone decides to risk it all, however, a little warning sign wouldn't stop a darn thing.

- John

[RSdancey]

Do you believe that a warning sign would fend off such a person?

I don't know. I do know that in Cave Country, there are several sites that have large placards installed at the entrance to some systems basically telling the OW divers "GET OUT NOW YOU FOOLS!". Do those have any impact?

At least if there were signs placed on the wrecks, NOBODY could claim "they didn't know" it was illegal/immoral to take artifacts from the wreckage.

I had a discussion with a guy in a local poker room here in Vegas a couple months ago who claimed to have done sneak dives on the B29 in Lake Meade. He knew enough at least to talk about using mix, and doing deco that sounded reasonable to me (high 02 mix at shallow depths, etc.). He said that there were obvious signs on the wreck that people had gone after it with tools to remove parts (he suspected that there are people on the black market willing to pay big bucks for B29 components for those interested in rebuilding legacy airframes...) Anyway, he mentioned that after the Deep Sea Detectives episode shot on the wreck, which talked in some detail about its "off limits" nature, a lot of people who used to blithely talk about their "treasures" from the wreck got real quiet, and word spread in the local community that nobody was supposed to touch it.

Nothing will stop a dedicated thief. But I wonder if there's a reasonable amount of effort to deter/warn the simply ignorant.

Ryan

[John Rawlings]

I do know that in Cave Country, there are several sites that have large placards installed at the entrance to some systems basically telling the OW divers "GET OUT NOW YOU FOOLS!". Do those have any impact?

Those signs, however, are a completely different issue. They say that "to go further will probably mean you're going to die". Signs placed on a wreck merely say that "to go further means you might get in trouble if someone sees you". Surely you aren't saying that they would have the same impact?

At least if there were signs placed on the wrecks, NOBODY could claim "they didn't know" it was illegal/immoral to take artifacts from the wreckage.

And where, exactly, would such a sign be placed on an aircraft the size of the P4Y-2 Privateer, (with a wing span of over 100 feet), so that divers would see it in the 3 - 10 feet of visibility and zero light conditions normally found on the wreck?

Nothing will stop a dedicated thief. But I wonder if there's a reasonable amount of effort to deter/warn the simply ignorant.

Ryan

True. I agree. Nothing will stop someone bent on criminality. I just do not agree that placing signs on these wrecks to warn off the ignorant is "reasonable". They are fragile and unique historical objects - why physically damage them by attaching signs? Especially signs that would be covered in silt and unreadable within a day or two in Lake Washington.

After all of the news coverage up here over the years of these plane wrecks, (the Navy prosecution of divers, etc.), anyone that thinks it is OK to loot artifacts from these wrecks hasn't been paying attention.

I guess that you and I will just have to agree to disagree on this.

- John

[Maverick]

man that was a fun little squal to read. I think a sign like sounder suggested is a waste of time and money and effort. John made a good point where on earth are you going to put a sign on such a large plane. but most of all who is going to report this theif, and to who the 'scuba police'. People should just enjoy what they see down there and leave it there. after are divers are privlaged to see what most of the world could only imagine. "the undrwater world"

[Curt McNamee]

I have been diving the Lake WA planes for over 25 years now. I never get tired of diving those sites. As a citizen who has spent half of his life involved with the military, the subject of military history (especially local) is very important to me.
Peo wrote that the broken-off tail section from the PV-2 looked "suspicious" and may have been caused by divers. In the case of this particular airplane it was Mother Nature, time and corrosion that did the deed.
Most planes of that era were put together with steel rivets holding the aluminum sections together. This plane is sticking nose down into the mud at about a (rough) 45 degree angle. Steel in water corrodes a heck of lot faster that aluminum. Two days after the 2001 Nisqually earthquake
I was diving on the PV-2. The first thing I saw was the tail section lying on the bottom. The cause of the break is quite obvious when one inspects the the rivet lines and the corrosion of the rivets therein. It was later that week when I was able to dive other sites that had obvious earthquake damage that we came to the conclusion that "a little shaken had been goin' on".
While these sites are in public waters, they are historical artifacts that have legal implication if they are mistreated, damaged, etc under various Fed and State historical laws. Be careful out there. I like to use soft weights for descent/buoy lines when diving around the planes and other wrecks in Lake Washington. It does really help to minimize the potential damage from dive markers.

Now, as far as stealing artifacts goes: A pox on the house of the diver doing these dirty, dastardly deeds! Shame!

Get out and go diving! Dive safe.

I have also dove and inspected the PV-2 several times and I think the tail was removed by salvage divers.

If the tail fell off as you suggest, the control cables and wiring going to the tail section would still be there and there would be damage to the tail from it falling off (like it was twisted).

The tail is also not currently located in an area that it should be if it indeed fell off. If it did fall off, then it should be right next to the fuselage with the tail lying on it's side or tail down. Right now it is several feet away and tail up.

This aircraft was manufactured to be bolted together in three sections so that it could be taken apart easily.

What I think is that the tail section was unbolted and a lift bag was used to move it away from the fuselage and then set back down on the bottom with the tail up. The seperation at the tail section has no damage at all and the control cables and wires are missing that would have gone to the tail.

We also have found a sign by the wreckage posted by a salvage team many years back claiming the rights to the wreckage.

This is just my input and my feelings of what I think has happened.

The next Advanced Diver Magazine will have a great article about this aircraft written by Mel Clark with some very good pictures showing the aircraft and the tail seperation.

Pick up a copy when it comes out and decide for yourself what you think happened. The mystery continues.

[Sounder]

Has anyone recorded the names or contact information of the "salvage rights holders?" Is there any specific information on the sign or is it more "The SpongeBob Salvagers own the rights to this wreck?" Seems to me that if there was specific information available, the Navy and US Attorneys would enjoy having it.

I know I write this as though it's a brand new idea... I'm SURE this has already been addressed. I'm just interested in details.

[Curt McNamee]

Has anyone recorded the names or contact information of the "salvage rights holders?" Is there any specific information on the sign or is it more "The SpongeBob Salvagers own the rights to this wreck?" Seems to me that if there was specific information available, the Navy and US Attorneys would enjoy having it.

I know I write this as though it's a brand new idea... I'm SURE this has already been addressed. I'm just interested in details.

As I understand it, in the early years when these planes were first discovered by divers the thought was that they could salvage them.

We all know now that they are the property of the USN and are not to be disturbed.

The sign that we found is clearly from the time when these wrecks were thought to be salvageable by the general public.

[Sounder]

Aaah, that makes sense. Thank you.