CCR Cave Certification

[Joshua Smith]

That's a really good point. I'm also extremely concerned about black holes and bird flu as they relate to diving.

[Grateful Diver]

That's a really good point. I'm also extremely concerned about black holes and bird flu as they relate to diving.

No joke ... you will see birds while diving at times. Even saw one at the I-beams once ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[Joshua Smith]

I didn't know we had any species like that here- I've seen birds diving to 120 fsw on discovery channel shows, but locally, really? What kind, do you know?

[John Rawlings]

I didn't know we had any species like that here- I've seen birds diving to 120 fsw on discovery channel shows, but locally, really? What kind, do you know?

Cormorants mostly....but I've seen a couple of Grebes darting down in front of me over the years as well.

The thing that has always amazed me is the size of the bird's eyes underwater. They look comically HUGE!

Hopefully, Curt and Mel will post some of their photos soon....

- John

[Joshua Smith]

I believe they're taking off again pretty quick- Dominican Republic, this time! Hopefully we can see some pics before they go.

[Curt McNamee]

Curt-

Thanks for the report, I too can't wait to see the pictures.

One question (and I'm not cave certified, but am cave-curious). How'd you manage gas planning for the team using CCR? I assume you had bailout bottles, but what were the air-sharing protocols for the team if you had to come off the loop or had to share gas?

That is a very good question and we were wondering about how that worked before we started our course.

Because we are on rebreathers, it changes a few things. This is how you figure out a dive plan:

In this case we will have a two person dive team each carrying 80 cu ft of bailout gas. We will use the team bailout concept which means one person can use the cumulative amount of team gas available. The variables that you have to know before you calculate your plan are:

1) The highest sac rate of the two divers
2) The average depth of the cave system you will be penetrating
3) The feet per minute that you can travel on the way back out of the cave
4) The amount of bailout gas between the two divers.

Lets say the highest sac rate between the two divers is .8 cu ft/min, your average depth will be 66 ft and you can travel at 50 ft/min on the way out.

Using the rule of thirds, you can use 2/3 of your gas to get you back out. Remember, you are not on O/C and you are not using any of that gas getting in.

Based on that calculation, you would have 106 cu ft of gas to get one person back out at a usage rate of 2.4 cu ft/min worst case. This gives you 44 min of bail out, still having 1/3 left for reserve.

If you have 44 min of time and you can travel at 50 ft/min, that means you can go back into the cave 2,200 ft spend as much time as you like (within the limits of your CCR), turn around and come out. From that point you have enough O/C gas to get one person back out with a 1/3 reserve left over.

The huge advantage of a CCR in cave diving is that you have much more time to deal with a problem when you are on your CCR, 4-5 hrs with all the supplies topped up. You do not have that with O/C. On O/C you are always have the time pressure of the limited amount of gas on your back.

CCR's in caves rock!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks Curt, I have a few more questions:

1) I'm assuming this means (since you are planning based on total OC gas for the team) that you'd have to practice passing bottles, if you were 2200 feet back (using your example) and one person had a CCR failure, you'd get almost out before their 80 goes dry, what do you do then? Signal the other teammate you are LOA and have them pass off their bottle? Also, it may be unrealistic to plan for multiple failures, but that does leave the other diver without a bailout bottle . . .

2) Why thirds on your bailout gas? My understanding of thirds in the OC context is that it allows you to get yourself and your teammate out if one goes OOA at the worst possible moment, here you have bailout gas for one way egresses for one diver. But related to that, maybe I answered my own question, I'd guess the answer to (1) above is that you wouldn't breathe your 80 down below that third, conceivably giving the other diver some bailout gas at all times . . .

3) Did you do deco? If so, what is the contingency for gas planning if you have to come off the CCR? Drop deco bottles? Surface support?

Sorry if these are pedantic questions, I'm curious how all this works.

-Doug

If you plan properly, you would still have 1/3 of each bailout available (or 2/3 of one) for another small problem if it came up. The chances of two complete equipment failures at the same time is pretty slim.

We had to pass our bailout bottles back and fourth between the two of us while moving forward, keeping our bouyancy under control.

When you have deco, you have to put what ever that time is in your overall planning.

On a serious cave dive, you would drop extra gas along the guide line at predetermined spots which will increase your safety by a bunch.

[CaptnJack]

So did you and Mel have cavern or intro cave before doing this (presumably) full cave class? Or was this a "zero to hero" as I've heard the whole deal at once called?

Sounds like you had fun.
Richard

[boydski]

Cormorants mostly....but I've seen a couple of Grebes darting down in front of me over the years as well.
- John

Cormorants and Grebes, how very cool!

The only bird I've ever seen underwater is my wife's middle finger.... , but that's a whole different discussion.

Congratulations to both Mel and Curt!!!!

[Curt McNamee]

So did you and Mel have cavern or intro cave before doing this (presumably) full cave class? Or was this a "zero to hero" as I've heard the whole deal at once called?

Sounds like you had fun.
Richard

I guess you would say it was "zero to getting it done but very hard" and I'm not sure about the "Hero" part. I can see now that it would be much easier to deal with the "Full Cave" if you had an "intro" class first and would highly recommend that route.

This was a " CCR Full Cave" Course. It is not designed to teach you anything about your CCR. You must have your CCR operation down to a science with lots of diving behind you to make this course work out.

[Curt McNamee]

Cormorants mostly....but I've seen a couple of Grebes darting down in front of me over the years as well.
- John

Cormorants and Grebes, how very cool!

The only bird I've ever seen underwater is my wife's middle finger.... , but that's a whole different discussion.

Congratulations to both Mel and Curt!!!!

At one of the caves entrances, we saw a water snake and was told there was a 4 ft long crock somewere in there also.

[boydski]

At one of the caves entrances, we saw a water snake and was told there was a 4 ft long crock somewere in there also.

A water snake would be cool. I'm not sure I'd want to see a crock!

I did get to see a blind cave eelone time, which was very unusual.

[CaptnJack]

I guess you would say it was "zero to getting it done but very hard" and I'm not sure about the "Hero" part. I can see now that it would be much easier to deal with the "Full Cave" if you had an "intro" class first and would highly recommend that route.

This was a " CCR Full Cave" Course. It is not designed to teach you anything about your CCR. You must have your CCR operation down to a science with lots of diving behind you to make this course work out.

Cool, I'm glad you had a good time and learned alot. Hard is good too, makes us better divers for the easy days

[scubagrunt]

So did you and Mel have cavern or intro cave before doing this (presumably) full cave class? Or was this a "zero to hero" as I've heard the whole deal at once called?

Sounds like you had fun.
Richard

The CCR Cave has prereqs, I can't remember what they are off the top of my head but as both Curt and I have CCR trimix and advanced wreck diver certs this covers the prereqs. If you did not have the prereqs then the course would require additional training before hand. I highly recommend this training to anyone. Now all i have to do is find some caves around here. i know there are some on vancouver island, but they are protected very well. anyone have any suggestions???
mel

[John Rawlings]

Now all i have to do is find some caves around here. i know there are some on vancouver island, but they are protected very well. anyone have any suggestions???
mel

You have a prety big back yard.....dig a big horizontal hole! I'm certain that your neighbors wouldn't mind! HA!

- John

[scubagrunt]

yea, thanks John for the "helpful" response. i was kinda looking for something a bit more interesting to dive in, not a mud hole!

[John Rawlings]

yea, thanks John for the "helpful" response. i was kinda looking for something a bit more interesting to dive in, not a mud hole!

Geeze....where's your sense of "adventure"? Just think of it as an unexplored "sump"!

[Tom Nic]

Now all i have to do is find some caves around here. i know there are some on vancouver island, but they are protected very well. anyone have any suggestions???
mel

St. Lazaria Island out of Sitka is pretty cool. A Lava Tube comes up in the middle of the Island and is connected to the open ocean so tide rises and falls. Entrance is at about 90 fsw, drops to about 150 fsw with a reasonable stricture before coming up in the middle of the island. I've seen some video shot by divers in Sitka that was pretty cool. Diver Dave got us a copy. I think a dive shop in Sitka carries them.

[CaptnJack]

I have heard that most of the caves in BC are quite sump like. Most are on forest land requiring 4wd and/or a helicopter to access. Many of the water filled passages are supposedly <50m long. So I have also heard that most of the exploration is done with small steel cylinders like 45cf in sidemount.

Generally locals up there have no cave diving training and have crossed over from dry spelunking. There aren't that many adventurers up there so they are fairly open about locations etc. Physical access being more of a limiting factor than people politics. I have heard the name Patrick Shaw a couple of times. You might consider contacting him through here:
http://www.cancaver.ca/bc/viceg/

Overall, I think a trip to FL or MX would get you more diving for less money than a "cave" on the Island. But hey, what do I know I've never tried it up there.

On a side note, I especially like this pic:
http://www.cancaver.ca/scrpbk/diving/trillium.htm

Good luck,
Richard

[scubagrunt]

thanks Richard, i will look into it.
mel

[Diver_Dave]

Who's coming up to dive the lava tube and island???