Helium/Trimix for Recreation limits???

[sheahanmcculla]

I know Helium is for dives past recreation limits (130'). I was wondering if you can use it for less then that? If you wanted to go to 120' or so but, Narcosis really effects you. I have not heard anything about this so I thought I would ask the question.

Thanks
Sheahan

[Maverick]

According to UTD it should be used on any dive deeper than 100ffw,fsw. does that help?

[Grateful Diver]

IANTD also offers a recreational trimix class.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[BDub]

I know Helium is for dives past recreation limits (130'). I was wondering if you can use it for less then that? If you wanted to go to 120' or so but, Narcosis really effects you. I have not heard anything about this so I thought I would ask the question.

Thanks
Sheahan

There are several recreational helitrox classes. There's UTD Rec 3, GUE Rec Triox, IANTD, as Bob mentioned, has Recreational Helitrox (I believe that's what its called), Scott I believe is teaching a NAUI Rec Helitrox as well.

To my knowledge, all are no decompression limits.

[sheahanmcculla]

Thanks for the info. I was not aware this was an actual class. However I'm not familiar with the abbreviation's. I just know PADI and NauI. Has anyone taken one of these classes, and it helped them achieve new depths? I am interested in taking a class, any recommendations would be great!

[dsteding]

I took NAUI helitrox as part of the stepping stones in my tech training. In general, it is a useful tool, but the real problem is the limited bottom time at those depths. So, as a purely recreational class, you are limited to ~10 minutes or so at 130 fsw.

I think a good recreational helium class will be more about diving deeper in a safe manner than use of helium, solving problems underwater, how you plan such dives, things like that.

UTD has a "Tech 1" now that is double tanks, O2 for deco, gas is 25/25. That is a good option locally, if you are interested (and, for 130 fsw dives, doubles start to be useful).

Thanks for the info. I was not aware this was an actual class. However I'm not familiar with the abbreviation's. I just know PADI and NauI. Has anyone taken one of these classes, and it helped them achieve new depths? I am interested in taking a class, any recommendations would be great!

[vbcoachchris]

Recreational Helium classes are designed for dives in the 100 – 130 ft range. Each class is a little different. I have taken the GUE class and teach the NAUI Helitrox class, so I can tell you that my NAUI and the GUE classes are more about the skills and protocols needed to safely execute dives in that depth range; the fact that you get to use helium is a bonus. I believe the UTD class has the same focus, but Brian can chime in on that. I am not familiar with the IANTD class at all.

The NAUI Helitrox class is a RGBM table based on No or Minimum (depending on your belief of decompression) Decompression. My class is 6-8 total dives. 4 of the dives are on Helium Mixtures. 2-4 dives are skill and protocol dives in the 0-60 ft range. The class is usually 5-6 days and costs somewhere between $300-$600 depending on the agency /instructor, plus C card, breathing gas, instructor fees, and maybe charter fees of course. Single tanks are fine, but the NTEC/ Hogarthian equipment configuration is required.

You have several great options locally if you choose to pursue it, but to increase the odds of having an enjoyable class always interview the instructor first.

The advantages of helium in the recreational depth range are numerous, but that is a different thread.

Scott

[BDub]

UTD Rec 3 (Recreational Helitrox) is a critical skills class as well. Typically 6-8 dives (6 minimum), 4-6 skills dives above 50fsw and 2 experience dives to 130fsw.

The skills dives are designed to teach you the skills necessary to conduct dives to 130fsw. Once those skills are proficient, we go do the dives on 25/25. A single tank is ok, however, as Doug mentioned, when you start diving to those depths, doubles become very handy (as does a deco bottle, but then we're talking tech training).

I should clarify my previous post, however. The Rec 3 course does teach backgas decompression. It's not a tech class, but it does teach how to deco on backgas if you go over MDL's (Minimum Decompression Limits).

Bob can chime in on the IANTD Helitrox. Jerome Ryan is an instructor who teaches that class locally I believe.

[fmerkel]

I think it would be good for someone to post what a 'recreational' tank of trimix (say ~100cf) would cost the average diver without some special arrangement with a shop.

[BDub]

I think it would be good for someone to post what a 'recreational' tank of trimix (say ~100cf) would cost the average diver without some special arrangement with a shop.

Probably around $40 (and worth every penny)

[Maverick]

about 1buck a foot, but you never fill a full tank because there is usually some left over from the last dive. He can get very pricey and you will most likely want a few tanks set aside just for He. In my personal opinion (not starting a war I hope) it is not economical to use he in recreational no decompresion limit dives. the bottom time is so short that you are bound to run into some deco or just make diving a more expensive sport, not to mention you can't just stop by for a fill (like with air or EAN) you have to drop tanks off, which means two trips for a single dive. There is not much to see down deep unless you are a bottle hunting slut or like to see wrecks. If you get narced to easy, you should probably stay a bit shallower (unless we"re talking LK WA Dives) till you are more comfortable in the water. I have found that your comfort level in the water, stress of work that day, lack of hydration, lack of nicotine (if a smoker, i'm not just heard), and lack of sleep all contribute to stress underwater and can cause an accelerated onset of our good friend NitroNarcDude. so take into consideration all these points and talk with people like Brian (Bdub), or . . . . and make sure this is something you really want to do before you go and drop 600 scuba points on a class. I think the class would be a great training coourse to learn about the safe way to dive deep, and that may lead you to not even needing He if it would raise your confidence in the water, but just to dive helium to go deeper sounds to me like you just need more time in the water.

Off subject:
I mean really before helium people i know personally would dive wrecks like the governor (240fsw) on freakin tire air, not even filtered, or do the MT6 barges from shore 1320 feet off cove 1 without scooters on rebreathers. Trimix is very new to tech diving and not really needed to go deep, it just makes things more clear, not necessarily safer. Sure clear head is safer, but if you are not comfortable at say 90fsw on air or EAN and you think He will make it better you may not be able to problem solve if the shit were to hit the fan. Sounds to me like more training is needed not a new gas plan.

anyway not every shop sells trimix so it can be a pain in the butt to find.

[sheahanmcculla]

Wow $300-$600 is al lot more then the AOW class! But it seems like it's a lot of water time which is good. I am sure I need more time and practice Maverick....I was just asking because I feel pretty comfortable in the water at about 100 dives, but I still seem to get narced real easy. I wasn't sure if the helium would be a quick fix for that problem. From what I have read, it's not. And I didn't realize how expensive it is. I would however be interested in a class like this...I just want to see the boat at Muk. and one day maybe the diamond knot, my uncle always talks about it. Thanks for all the input...Im slowly working on my doubles...1 80 hydrod, 1 to go.

[Maverick]

I just want to see the boat at Muk.

well why didn't say so, the boat a muk is an air dive for sure, and a great sky dive too. We love to swim to the bouy and drop to the bottom, huge rock fish down there, a nice buzz is caught and then a nice slow accend up the slope to the geodome and non narish water. totally due-able without heium and fun too. the boat is not much to see though just big fish and a small dingy, fun dive though. lets go, i'm ready when you are

[sheahanmcculla]

I just want to see the boat at Muk.

well why didn't say so, the boat a muk is an air dive for sure, and a great sky dive too. We love to swim to the bouy and drop to the bottom, huge rock fish down there, a nice buzz is caught and then a nice slow accend up the slope to the geodome and non narish water. totally due-able without heium and fun too. the boat is not much to see though just big fish and a small dingy, fun dive though. lets go, i'm ready when you are

Would love to, but the depths the hole problem. Last time I was at 100' was in the san juans and i started feeling like I couldn't get enough air...wanted to go up....could barly tell which way was up.....totally freaked out. Now I cant go past 70' without feeling out of breath. So as soon as I get over that hump I'll let you know. I think I will look into doing another class. Maybe some more skills would make some of that crappy narc not feel so bad.

[Joshua Smith]

I gotta chime in here- Now that I dive a rebreather, I dive trimix on every dive. It's so cheap, there's no downside. But I dove deep air a lot on OC. I know, it's not for everyone, and we have other choices, now, and I'm sure I'm gonna raise a few eyebrows by writing the following, but I'm gonna do it anyway:

20 years ago, *all* recreational diving was on air. Nitrox and 02 were considered edgy and weird. Divers would regularly go to 200, and sometimes 300' on air. Because that was all there was. (except for the military and commercial divers, who had Helium)

My own experiences diving around here on air are, well, pretty extensive, actually. And I've found that, in my own case, Narcosis is extremely variable, and not necessarilly related to depth. The worst Narc I ever had happened at ~80 fsw- it involved a night dive, a silt-out, and a less experienced diver starting to freak out and ascend uncontrollably- I had to rise up, grab him, and get us both back near the bottom, until we could clear our heads- we pretty much crawled back up the hill at Mukilteo into the shallows. My head was spinning and my heart was racing, just from the stress, combined with the dark, the cold, and the silted-out vis. It was one of the best dives I ever had- I learned a *lot* of stuff that night.

Conversely, a trusted dive buddy and I did a 200' dive on air one time. (Officially, I recomend that nobody, anywhere, do this, ever, and as a matter of fact, anybody who even remotely does anything similar to the way I do things underwater should sell all their dive gear, never go near water again, and take up a nice hobby like Chess, or crossword puzzles)

I know we were impaired at depth, but the dive was smooth as could be, and at max depth, I felt calm and collected enough to do simple math problems in my head. Deep air can be done, and it can be done safely. You just have to work up to it, and treat it with respect. And maybe not everyone can do it- I don't know, but I do know that I can do it. And I'm not the only one out there, either.
What I've found, for myself, is that if I'm worried, or stressed, or just don't have confidence in myself or my buddy, I increase the likelihood of being narced. Other pre disposing factors are cold, dark, and decreased visibility from silt and the like. But these are all manageable factors, and you can always choose not to dive that day. The more confident you feel, the better your dive will go- the better your training and experience is, the more confident you'll feel.
All that said, I have no issue with people desiring to use mix to increase their comfort levels- the only issue I have is with people who insist that *everyone* should use helium to go below 80 feet, or whatever the current thinking is on that- I've heard everything from 70 to 150'. Only *you* can decide where that limit is.

Of course, these days, I pretty much only use 2 mixes: 10/50 and 15/50. And I would probably decline to dive with someone who wanted to do a 200' dive on air with me.

[vbcoachchris]

I think it would be good for someone to post what a 'recreational' tank of trimix (say ~100cf) would cost the average diver without some special arrangement with a shop.

Probably around $40 (and worth every penny)

I charge $20 for 100 cft of 26/17 (NAUI Helitrox) and $35 for 25/25 fills. Most of the other trimix fill stations in the area are about the same.

The fill is not time consuming either. You can get your tanks filled most of the time in around in 15-20 min.

I have seen nitrox fills as high as $15 in our area, so if I were doing a dive to 120 ft, I would spring for the extra $5 (But then again I have helium in my mix if I go to 101 feet ).

Because of left over helium the next fill is usually only about $15.

Scott

[spatman]

Last time I was at 100' was in the san juans and i started feeling like I couldn't get enough air...wanted to go up....could barly tell which way was up.....totally freaked out.

this sounds to me like CO2 loading leading to the onset of narcosis/panic. are you working hard? taking deep even breaths and expelling as much out as possible each time?

[Maverick]

I just want to see the boat at Muk.

well why didn't say so, the boat a muk is an air dive for sure, and a great sky dive too. We love to swim to the bouy and drop to the bottom, huge rock fish down there, a nice buzz is caught and then a nice slow accend up the slope to the geodome and non narish water. totally due-able without heium and fun too. the boat is not much to see though just big fish and a small dingy, fun dive though. lets go, i'm ready when you are

Would love to, but the depths the hole problem. Last time I was at 100' was in the san juans and i started feeling like I couldn't get enough air...wanted to go up....could barly tell which way was up.....totally freaked out. Now I cant go past 70' without feeling out of breath. So as soon as I get over that hump I'll let you know. I think I will look into doing another class. Maybe some more skills would make some of that crappy narc not feel so bad.

Have you thought maybe your reg is not tuned right, or maybe you have to breath deeper and slower dude, and think of happy places that are not scary. works for me to think of happy thoghts if the scared narc comes on.

[Maverick]

Last time I was at 100' was in the san juans and i started feeling like I couldn't get enough air...wanted to go up....could barly tell which way was up.....totally freaked out.

this sounds to me like CO2 loading leading to the onset of narcosis/panic. are you working hard? taking deep even breaths and expelling as much out as possible each time?

you beat me to it duder, what spat said is what i was thinkning

[vbcoachchris]

[quote="Joshua Smith"]Deep air can be done, and it can be done safely. You just have to work up to it, and treat it with respect. And maybe not everyone can do it- I don't know, but I do know that I can do it. And I'm not the only one out there, either.
quote]

IMHO (and it's just an opinion) It's not whether it can be done; it’s more WHY would I do it. In the era you are talking about Trimix was not widely available, today it is. I would never question whether you could do it (only you know your comfort limit), but I would always like to know the “why” behind your choice.

Scott

[sheahanmcculla]

Last time I was at 100' was in the san juans and i started feeling like I couldn't get enough air...wanted to go up....could barly tell which way was up.....totally freaked out.

this sounds to me like CO2 loading leading to the onset of narcosis/panic. are you working hard? taking deep even breaths and expelling as much out as possible each time?

I dont notice myself working hard, I try to hardly kick. I have noticed though if there is a little current and im kicking against it it happens sooner like 60'. But when that happens I stop and catch my breath, trying to do what you said ...breath out aall the way. I have a aqualung titan lx reg just serviced and always on the +. It happened to my brother in law last sat we went straight to the dome quick trying to get better vis. and he signals low air I look and he has 2900 psi I tell him to stop and breath and then hes fine. He told me after the dive that he felt like he wasn't getting enough air. so I'm glad it's not just me.

[Maverick]

Last time I was at 100' was in the san juans and i started feeling like I couldn't get enough air...wanted to go up....could barly tell which way was up.....totally freaked out.

this sounds to me like CO2 loading leading to the onset of narcosis/panic. are you working hard? taking deep even breaths and expelling as much out as possible each time?

I dont notice myself working hard, I try to hardly kick. I have noticed though if there is a little current and im kicking against it it happens sooner like 60'. But when that happens I stop and catch my breath, trying to do what you said ...breath out aall the way. I have a aqualung titan lx reg just serviced and always on the +. It happened to my brother in law last sat we went straight to the dome quick trying to get better vis. and he signals low air I look and he has 2900 psi I tell him to stop and breath and then hes fine. He told me after the dive that he felt like he wasn't getting enough air. so I'm glad it's not just me.

work on breathing from your diaphram, really sounds to me like a shallow breathing prob. Make sure your belly moves when you breath. and try not to anticipate the narc but be aware when it come on and try to solve it with breathing,

[spatman]

yep, mav's right. watch your breathing, CO2 loading can come on while staying still if you're not expelling enough from your lungs.

[Sounder]

+1 more for CO2 loading as the suspect for his issues.

[Maverick]

+1 more for CO2 loading as the suspect for his issues.

Virtual High 5 to sounder