Open Water training standards-split from "fatality at Sund Rock"

[Pez7378]

Panic is definitely the final factor that takes the diver out. And sometimes the diver is aware they are panicky...sometimes they deny it. Panic has no place underwater.

Agreed.

[Dusty2]

I really like the idea of constant awareness being taught. Gm is great but as said earlier it is pretty advanced stuff for someone who is not even really stable underwater. Early on in a dive I check my consumption and compare it with my buddies so by looking at my gauges I am also aware of where his should be. I ask for his gauge several times during a dive so I can compare our SAC rates and always be aware of where we both are in relation to each other. I guess diving with an 80 year old has taught me some good habits. I make it my responsibility to be aware of my buddies air as well as mine and by doing so make us both more aware.

How you would teach this and whether or not you would be allowed to?? I thoroughly believe any agency should teach constant awareness at all levels. If they don't then they are breeding unsafe divers and should be censured.

[Grateful Diver]

So much to say ...

First off, I don't think the accident that spawned this discussion was due to gas management issues, per se. Running low on, or out of, gas was a factor ... if what we read was accurate (not all newspaper accounts are). But ultimately this person made it to the surface, and had she followed standard procedures that are taught in EVERY OW class ... by EVERY agency ... she would most likely be alive today. We don't know why she didn't drop her weights or orally inflate her BCD ... so we can only speculate on what might have occurred.

Second point ... I have a hard time believing that PADI forbids teaching above minimum standards. First off, because I've worked with PADI instructors who certainly do, and secondly because in Peter's discussions on ScubaBoard (in the I2I forum) he mentions some disagreement between his instructor and his evaluator on such topics. So while it may be that there is concensus that the mathematics of determining SAC rates and calculate rock bottom pressures may be verboten, there's nothing preventing a PADI instructor from training their students how to think about their dive plan from the perspective of how much gas they have, and reasonably questioning whether it's enough to do the dive. There's nothing preventing them from relating the depth-volume relationship to real-world situations. There's nothing preventing them from explaining WHY it's important to check your gauges regularly and remain within certain depths with certain size tanks. With new divers, the key thing is to get them thinking and questioning ... and any instructor can do that within the standards of their agency.

There's a big difference between learning something and understanding it. At the OW level we teach through repetition ... both at the academic and practical level. In the classroom you say something ... and at every appropriate opportunity you say it again to build a context around WHY you said it. In the pool you ask your students for their gas pressure often ... to get them used to looking. The law of primacy will help them build this reflex into what they're doing. These simple steps are not in violation of anybody's standards ... and they're the foundation of learning how to manage your air supply.

And finally, there seems to be some misunderstanding of what Gas Managment actually involves. Yeah, at a certain level it involves math. But it doesn't start at that level. It starts with a simple question ... "How much air is enough for the dive I want to do?" It starts with the notion that it's more important to think about how much gas you have to start the dive than it is to think about how much you have left when the dive is over.

For new OW divers, some rules of thumb around tank size, depth limits and turn pressure is sufficient. These things are easy to remember and simple to implement. Personally, I don't teach SAC calculations until AOW class. But in OW class I DO teach people about the notion of turn pressure ... using the simple "subtract reserve and divide by two" rule. Not much math there ... anyone with a third-grade understanding of arithmetic can do it. The value isn't the math ... it's getting them to think about how much gas they need before the dive ... it's developing the mindset and understanding of why that's important. Any instructor can do that and still maintain strict adherence to the standards of their agency.

And finally ... I don't think this accident was due to a lack of training. Perhaps inadequate attention to gas levels put her in the position of having to make an unplanned ascent, but not following the safety protocols that she certainly was taught in OW class is what ultimately led to her death. Had she thought to drop her weights, or orally inflate, she would've most likely survived to learn from the experience.

Does anyone actually know that this woman was PADI trained? If not, then perhaps that's an aspect of the discussion best left aside. It's easy to point fingers at an agency or instructor as having inadequately trained her. But I've seen no evidence that was the case. It could've been that she hasn't dived often enough to have remembered what she was taught when it was critically important. It could have been that she was one of those people who is prone to emotional responses when calm, rational ones are needed. It could have been that she was having other issues that caused her to take her mind off what she needed to do to resolve the problem ... or that for some reason she was physically incapable of doing so.

We really don't know.

Discussions like these may help us relieve some emotions, or rationalize why someone died. But they rarely derive from accurate information or produce useful results. Let's not turn this into another "such and such agency really sucks" discussion. Especially because I don't think any of us knows which agency or which instructor this woman received her training from.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[Raydar]

Wow, major deja vu. Seems like this conversation comes up every year or two when there's yet another senseless death due to a violation of the 6P rule.

Yet nothing ever seems to change. I imagine that the agencies care. But they're all trying to grab hold of as much market share as they can. The dive shops care. But they're trying to get customers in the door so they'll be able to sell gear. The instructors care. But they can't spend weeks and weeks teaching everybody everything on $99 per head.

It comes down to the fact that it's society's fault. They/we want everything to be (a) cheap, (b) high-quality, and (c) available for immediate gratification. Of course, you can't have all 3 and you're lucky if you can find 2 of them.

All an agency/shop/instructor can do is present enough information so that the person will survive to acquire more experience and expand their knowledge (and then pontificate on the internet. ).

Hopefully, this is impressed in the newbie diver so they don't get in over their head. As the great bard, Clint of Eastwood once proclaimed, "A man has got to know his limitations."

Looking back at my OW instructor with my now experienced eyes, the guy wasn't a very good diver himself and he didn't turn out good divers. But as my dad said mentioned to me a few years ago, "Yes, that may be true, but he taught you guys enough that you're still alive."

Then there's the people that just shouldn't be in the water, either due to physical or mental limitations, but still somehow got their OW certifications. I dove with someone like that once. He's dead now. Solo diving.

The information is out there. Whether people choose to make use of it, it's their responsibility. The universe isn't tolerant of ignorance. If a person is lucky, they learn from their mistakes. If not, they become a lesson to someone else.

I'll go back to my lurking now.

[airsix]

People really should spend the time to familiarize themselves with the critical parts of their buddy's gear: Where are weights, and how can they be removed, and how does your inflator work, and such-like.

I have a great example. Friday as we were gearing up you said "I like your red weight belt." and I instinctively knew that statement was not a fashion compliment. You were thinking "If there is an emergency, and I need to keep this guy on the surface, go for the red belt.". That's why it's red, and that kind of awareness is why I like diving with you and divers like you.

-Ben

[Joshua Smith]

Great post, Bob.

We seem to go through this cycle almost every time there's a fatality. It, understandably, triggers emotional responses. I'm not against raising awareness of safety issues, but I am against random speculation. And I maintain that writing stuff on the internet changes almost nothing in the real world, by itself.

However, this thread was split off from the fatality thread in order to discuss agency training standards.(With, I might point out, ZERO loss of content!) It's still OK to do that here, as long as we keep it civil.

[LCF]

BTW, I'm sorry. . . I really did not intend an agency-bashing (and note I didn't mention an agency in the OP). It's just that the juxtaposition of another death with what Peter had to say about the answer to his question made me so angry that I couldn't keep quiet.

There are a lot of things that lead to accidents. The Darwin awards show that, no matter what, some people are going to do things that are unsafe, or fail to do things to ensure their safety. We all have to battle complacency -- me as much as anybody else. Sometimes you don't even think about what you might need to know or do that you haven't practiced or considered for some time. Again, the only good that can come of incidents like this is if it makes all of us reflect a bit on what we know and how we conduct our dives, to see if anything needs snugging up for improved safety.

But most of us come into diving with virtually no basic information about it, and what we learn in our classes is what we know. Some people are curious enough to seek out additional learning, but if you don't know to ask a question, you're unlikely to find an answer to it. One of the things these BBs can do is point people to good sources of additional material, like Bob's excellent article on Gas Management on his website (among several excellent articles there).

Ranting about inadequate training is probably pretty useless, but trying to keep topics in front of especially newer divers, and point out good sources for reading and learning, is one way to combat the trend.

[defied]

Lynne,
Even though I am by no means the biggest fan of RBT's, I think you've stumbled on a great idea there. The training.

I would like to propose the creation of a Training section on this website that would sticky training threads, AKA see if we can find people (Bob?) who would be willing to post their free training information in a sticky, and lock it, allowing readers to read the information (download powerpoints?), and learn what they feel they need to learn. This by no means removes the purpose of having the actual face to face time, but would server as a great refresher for the people who need to brush up on their math, and a good starting point for the new divers on this forum who are thinking to themselves, "What are these guys talking about?"

This would allow for an entire forum directory that people can post questions, and educated debates on these training stickies. This would allow for the evolution of the knowledgebase, and of the sport. It would of course, have to be completely NHZ, so we can focus on strengthening community training.

D(B)

[Dusty2]

I agree with so much of what has been said here especially the fact that agency bashing is counterproductive and really accomplishes nothing.
However I believe that these discussions about proper diving technique and lessons we all need to learn is very helpful. My little incident last week could have been a very different thing if I hadn't read and learned much from these "rants" or whatever you want to call them. The fact that in a very stressful and dangerous situation allot you what I had read here clicked into my head and provided me with the knowledge to react properly and handle the situation was priceless.

To those that say "Didn't we just have this discussion" I say maybe we did but there are different eyes looking at and learning from it now and that is very important and productive. Grope input and discussion is the very best way for the new diver to gain valuable information from those that are more experienced and have more training. These discussions are saving lives and preventing awful incidents like this from becoming sad statistics.

So rave on guys and I'll keep reading and gleaning knowledge from it!

[airsix]

Just thought of something else I wanted to say since there is so much talk about training agencies.

The training agency model is fundamentally flawed if you ask me. There is a built-in conflict of interest when a flat-rate is charged to get someone through the program. There are two glaring problems. 1) There is a financial incentive to process the student as quickly as possible. 2) There is a financial incentive to PASS all students since remediation would be costly to the instructor or shop (more time, same comp.). There are some really great instructors who despite this model spend the necessary extra time with those who need it. And in my opinion, these good instructors are being punished for their good deeds by accepting reduced pay per hour worked. I think it's wrong and I think it is unfair to the instructors who are doing the right thing.

When I was taught to fly I paid by the hour. And I kept paying by the hour until my instructor thought I had it down. He had no financial incentive to rush me through because whether he was teaching me or the next guy he was being paid the same. And the written and field exams were administered by an independent third party, not my instructor.

Be clear this is not a slam on instructors, who as I see it are doing the best they can with the model they are held to.

-Ben

[CaptnJack]

This would allow for an entire forum directory that people can post questions, and educated debates on these training stickies.

90% of this board discussion is at the AOW-ish level. Yes there are a few threads which are dramatically more advanced and a few which are just purely goof offs. But we are basically discussing these topics (e.g. gas, bouyancy, trim, weighting etc) continually. Historically this has not been a board where we tell people "see XYZ sticky". Its a continual discussion.

Not saying your idea is a bad one, just that these topics are ongoing and in any given month come up fairly regularly. Feel free to start a new thread or post your questions.

[Tangfish]

In my own experience, I've learned much, much more than the bare minimum at each step along the way of a handful of PADI certs. To this day, some of my best instructors were PADI instructors. I think it matters more who the instructor is than the certifying agency. And like other businesses, certifying agencies themselves are subject to the forces of consumers, general business demands and the law. Being the largest agency, they're likely subject to more scrutiny and regulation than are the others. I doubt anyone at PADI *wants* to restrict instructors from teaching skills beyond the bare minimum (if indeed this is truly the case). I am grateful as hell for PADI. If that agency weren't around, I probably wouldn't have most or all of my dive buddies, and I myself might not even be a diver right now. I'm also thankful that there is more to learn beyond what PADI offers.

[defied]

This would allow for an entire forum directory that people can post questions, and educated debates on these training stickies.

90% of this board discussion is at the AOW-ish level. Yes there are a few threads which are dramatically more advanced and a few which are just purely goof offs. But we are basically discussing these topics (e.g. gas, bouyancy, trim, weighting etc) continually. Historically this has not been a board where we tell people "see XYZ sticky". Its a continual discussion.

Not saying your idea is a bad one, just that these topics are ongoing and in any given month come up fairly regularly. Feel free to start a new thread or post your questions.

That's my point exactly. There's a lot of discussions about it, so let's make some initial training ones, and sticky those, and the continue the discussions in that thread. That allows for new divers to see the initial training notes that people are referring to, instead of having to archive search 4 months back for what the hell RBT means.

D(B)

[CaptnJack]

This would allow for an entire forum directory that people can post questions, and educated debates on these training stickies.

90% of this board discussion is at the AOW-ish level. Yes there are a few threads which are dramatically more advanced and a few which are just purely goof offs. But we are basically discussing these topics (e.g. gas, bouyancy, trim, weighting etc) continually. Historically this has not been a board where we tell people "see XYZ sticky". Its a continual discussion.

Not saying your idea is a bad one, just that these topics are ongoing and in any given month come up fairly regularly. Feel free to start a new thread or post your questions.

That's my point exactly. There's a lot of discussions about it, so let's make some initial training ones, and sticky those, and the continue the discussions in that thread. That allows for new divers to see the initial training notes that people are referring to, instead of having to archive search 4 months back for what the hell RBT means.

D(B)

Talk to Josh or Calvin. In the past, new discussions were encouraged over stickies as a "master resource".
RBT = residual bottom time?

[airsix]

It sounds like there is consensus on the subject of training standards. Why talk about it more? Take the same approach as Mukilteo. Lets start formulating a plan that includes 1) gathering supporters, 2) gathering information, 3) preparing a proposal, 4)Taking our concerns to the agencies in a unified voice.

This wonderful club Calvin started can be the seed, but this is bigger than us. The good news is we have connections. If we organize, and then gather support I'm sure we could effect some changes. I think formalizing as an organization with a stated mission would be necessary to keep things cohesive. Before anyone says that's going too far I say we do something or we be quiet about it. Which is it?

-Ben

[Raydar]

In my own experience, I've learned much, much more than the bare minimum at each step along the way of a handful of PADI certs. To this day, some of my best instructors were PADI instructors. I think it matters more who the instructor is than the certifying agency. And like other businesses, certifying agencies themselves are subject to the forces of consumers, general business demands and the law. Being the largest agency, they're likely subject to more scrutiny and regulation than are the others. I doubt anyone at PADI *wants* to restrict instructors from teaching skills beyond the bare minimum (if indeed this is truly the case). I am grateful as hell for PADI. If that agency weren't around, I probably wouldn't have most or all of my dive buddies, and I myself might not even be a diver right now. I'm also thankful that there is more to learn beyond what PADI offers.

As a general rule, it seems that a more a person puts into their training/education, the more they get out of it. This seems to be relatively constant no matter the instructor, agency, or even sport.

Some people just want to blow bubbles and say they're a scuba diver. Other people want to learn, expand their knowledge, and become a Scuba Diver.

[Joshua Smith]

As a general rule, it seems that a more a person puts into their training/education, the more they get out of it. This seems to be relatively constant no matter the instructor, agency, or even sport.

Some people just want to blow bubbles and say they're a scuba diver. Other people want to learn, expand their knowledge, and become a Scuba Diver.

That's really good.

[BDub]

While I'm sure liabilities and legalities play a large role in PADI's course curriculum, I think marketing plays a very large role as well.

If nothing else, PADI has done an incredible job of creating and capitalizing on a niche market for itself. As Ray made mention of in a previous post, people want things cheap, easy, and fast. Dive training is no different and PADI has gone after that model.

Not everyone wants to learn about gas management, they just want to be told what to do. They want to go on vacation and not have to worry about calculating this, or doing scuba math....they want some simple rules to follow. Many of these people wouldn't dive if they had to learn all that "RMV stuff" in order to dive (yes, I know the argument could be made that they shouldn't be diving if they don't understand that, but that's not the point of my post).

PADI goes after that diver very well.

(I'm in NO way PADI bashing. Just illustrating that they have a niche market they have developed and have done a very good job going after)

[Sounder]

Being "for profit" means you do everything you can to make the most money you can, while staying within the law and limiting your liability to an acceptable level. PADI does this beautifully - Brian nailed it.

[Jenbowes]

I'm a brand new diver, and even newer to this site, so reading the academia is interesting, but I can tell you from my perspective where this incident has me with heart palpitations.

I had EXCELLENT instructors and they pounded the safety steps, air management, dive plan, etc - SADDD, BWARF, Buddy Checks. And most importantly, DON'T PANIC! And they did all of it really really well, in class, at the pool, and in open water.

So, new, I feel really well prepared in my head for how to plan a dive and so far, I have executed all seven of them just fine (7 dives?! I'm practically an EXPERT! ... I'm kidding, of course).

But I've never dropped my weights. I know where they are and the theory of how to drop them, but I have no muscle memory of the action and I've never pulled the cords. How difficult are they to pull? Is it an easy release, or does it take force? The realization that I'm not entirely sure how that works means that I may not be able to execute it in the water. Maybe... it was taught to me in class .. but can I really? I don't know.

I've never had an urgent situation where I've had to orally inflate my BC, except the planned "emergency no air assent" in OW class. And then, I've only done it once in flat calm water. At the end of a dive, I'm still pretty bushed, and I'm relieved to just pop air into my BC and relax. If waves are pitching around my head and I'm exhausted from a no air assent and fear, will I be able to get enough of a gulp of air to inflate the BC? Maybe ... it was taught to me in class... but do I really? I don't know.

So, for me, the event at Sund Rock has really made me want to get in the water and get more practice of those things that aren't habit and that I hope I never have to use, so that if the circumstance comes up, I can assuage any fears by reminding myself that I know exactly what to do, not just because it was taught to me in a class, but b/c I've done it and I'm sure.

My instructors were excellent at teaching me this stuff and answering questions and reiterating all of the details (SSI, by the way), but no matter how skilled they were, ultimately whether I'm good at that emergency stuff has very little to do with them, and everything to do with me.

Just the newbie's two cents.

[Stu]

Being "for profit" means you do everything you can to make the most money you can

Many 'non-profits' do this also.

[Sounder]

Jen - there are a lot of people here who are willing to go out with new divers to dive and to practice skills. Toss it out there - there are some world-class "big buddies" on this board who would be glad to go out with you and show you some stuff you won't learn in OW class.

If you can make it to the club dive, you'll meet many of them there. Otherwise, take a look around and see what kind of posts you enjoy reading and who writes them.... just don't let the goofing steer you away immediately though. Some of our best hijackers/goof-balls are some pretty kick-ass big buddies.

We're glad you're here and we're happy to help any way we can.

[scottsax]

Jen-the things that scare me the most are the things I practice the most. I was terrified to take my mask off in OW class, hated it when I did it then, and didn't do it for a long time. On nearly every dive now, I'm taking it off and breathing for a minute or so so it's not frightening anymore. I even take it off, hand it to my buddy, and deploy my backup. I don't want to be totally panicked if I should lose my mask, and now I won't.

I realized after reading your post that I've never ditched my weights, either, but I know how it's done... Hmm... Well, looks like Saturday at the club dive I'll be ditching them at the surface, and orally inflating my wing.

Thanks for the reminder!

[enchantmentdivi]

Keeping it simple....from reading the newspaper accounts, it sounds as if the buddy team may not have been watching their guages enough...everything else with gas management aside....

In my OW class, my instructor told us that at any given time during the pool and/or open water sessions, she may ask us how much air we had in our tank. WITHOUT LOOKING, we were supposed to be able to tell her our remaining air pressure within 100 psi. It taught us that we needed to be checking our guages every couple of minutes in order to be able to tell her with that amount of accuracy WITHOUT LOOKING. It put the fear of God into me. I'm sure the consequences for not knowing the remaining psi accurately without looking would've just been a six pack of beer. But, I didn't want to be "the one" that got caught.

Ok, stupid mind tricks. But it worked. 962 dives later, I can still tell you have much air I have in my tank on any given dive within 100 psi WITHOUT LOOKING!

[Raydar]

As a general rule, it seems that a more a person puts into their training/education, the more they get out of it. This seems to be relatively constant no matter the instructor, agency, or even sport.

Some people just want to blow bubbles and say they're a scuba diver. Other people want to learn, expand their knowledge, and become a Scuba Diver.

That's really good.

Just because I dive open circuit doesn't mean I'm a complete idiot.