Ling Cod slot limits - how's that working out for ya?

[H20doctor]

Amen... I agree

[Tom Nic]

In response to F&WL Commissioner David Jennings and Northwest Dive News,

Hi there CPMurray, and welcome to NWDC.

I appreciate your thoughts and input, and for keeping the discussion civil (as you have).

This is obviously a hot button issue, and there's a bit of history of flame wars on this (and other!) topics on the board in the past. As long as things are kept civil and respectful discussion and opinions are welcome.

There's a lot of folks who agree with you on this board - and alot that disagree. NWDC is a pretty wide representation of the PNW dive community - hunters and fishermen are well represented, as are folks who just take pics, and folks who are anti-hunting. Many of us know each other and dive with each other, and that face to face contact goes a long way to keeping NWDC a place where divers hang out, meet, and organize around common interests.

If you have the time, you might pop over to the introductions thread and tell us a bit more about yourself! And again, welcome to NWDC.

:norris:

[Shaker100]

This is another example of an attempt at preserving a animal species population that will end up reducing instead. I doubt the regulator who is pushing this has ever spear fished.

[jeffgerritsen]

Many years ago, when I shot my first deer, I was so excited I forgot to tag the deer in what the Idaho fish and game calls a "timely fashion". Guess who drove up shortly after I shot the deer. After my contact with Idaho fish and game, I decided the best thing I could do is to deprive fish and game of my support. So I sold the rifle. Now I take pictures.

I see I need to do the same with Washington fish and game - deprive them of any monies I can. So I leave bubbles and take pictures!

BTW, I'm not anti hunting / fishing. It's just my experience with IFG was so negative my best response was to deprive them of money and encourage others to do the same. After all the game warden is not on your side. They are out there to make money from fines!

[CPMurray]

From: "Assistant Director, Fish Program (DFW)" <fpastdir@dfw.wa.gov>
To: Me
Sent: Wed, June 1, 2011 11:42:07 AM
Subject: Lingcod Slot Limits


Dear Mr. Murray:
Thank you for your email correspondence to the Washington Fish and Wildlife Commission (Commission) regarding the rules for spearfishing lingcod in Puget Sound. The Commission forwarded your email to the Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife (Department), Fish Program for a direct response.
You have raised two issues regarding lingcod and spearfishing, 1) The difficulty of sizing lingcod underwater in order to conform to the 26 to 36 inch slot limit that was imposed in 2010, and 2) Setting the spearfishing season to align with the angling season from May 1 to June 15, consistent with the hook and line tide restrictions.
The Department adopted the spearfishing slot limit in order to protect lingcod. The minimum size limit of 26 inches was set to ensure that over 50% of the lingcod can mature and spawn once prior to being available for harvest. The maximum size limit of 36 inches was implemented to protect the larger female lingcod that produce large number of eggs. The Department recognizes the challenges to sizing fish underwater and that fish may be speared that do not meet the size limit restrictions. However, spearfishing minimum size limits for lingcod have been imposed in Oregon, California and British Columbia, Canada with enforcement success. Department staff are collecting information from divers like you on the ability of spearfishers to size fish underwater. We will continue to evaluate this information to determine if we need to modify this regulation in the future.
Me.... Not so sure about the other states and BC. I purchase a fishing license here in Puget Sound, I really don't need to know unless I fish there. We are unique here in the Puget Sound, we need to make knowledgeable, logical rules, use common sense and not copy other pacific coastal areas and hope it works. I understand the spawning cycles and the reason for it. But more fish will still be wasted "not harvested", since you can't measure underwater. A half inch either way will still get you a citation and a fine.[/color]
Regarding changing seasons to match the angling season, the Department received comments regarding user conflicts between anglers and divers, and the Commission chose to keep the spearfishing season as a means to keep orderly fisheries and to avoid conflict between fisheries.
Me....With twenty anglers to two divers (just a guess with the amounts of fishing line and trash we find on the bottom), I can imagine who was winning any conflict. There just isn't enough divers to voice up to this and never will be. We should still have the same season as anglers, we are paying for the same licensing, plus all the equipment. We divers are also limited to depth's and currents, not so for anglers.

If you have further comments please contact Wayne Palsson, Research Scientist, at our Mill Creek office at (425) 379-2313.

[rjarnold]

That is basically the same response as all the others. I'd like them to clarify "enforcement success" - do they mean that spearfishermen tried to show them the error of their ways, were ignored, and finally gave up? "Enforcement success" does not mean that fish are going unwasted in those areas as well.

Using "user conflicts" to shorten the dive season also makes little sense. If you wanted to lower user conflict, you would make the seasons different, or at least try to minimize overlap. You don't shorten one group's season but keep it overlapping with the other's... how much sense does that make?

[rjarnold]

But now they're going to get your money anyways... welcome the new Discovery Pass!

Many years ago, when I shot my first deer, I was so excited I forgot to tag the deer in what the Idaho fish and game calls a "timely fashion". Guess who drove up shortly after I shot the deer. After my contact with Idaho fish and game, I decided the best thing I could do is to deprive fish and game of my support. So I sold the rifle. Now I take pictures.

I see I need to do the same with Washington fish and game - deprive them of any monies I can. So I leave bubbles and take pictures!

BTW, I'm not anti hunting / fishing. It's just my experience with IFG was so negative my best response was to deprive them of money and encourage others to do the same. After all the game warden is not on your side. They are out there to make money from fines!

[CaptnJack]

how much sense does that make?

None. Its a historical artifact, and probably helps them allocate enforcement.

This whole mess could be (mostly) resolved with a tag system which is used for various sizes/sexes of deer by different means (arrow/powder/rifle).

Basically:
Sell X lingcod tags sold per year, e.g. ~8 tags per fisherman, 10,000 lings total allowed harvest, distribute by area as necessary. Tags to be used between May15 and Sept1 (e.g.) by hook and line or spearing, whatever legal means the purchaser wishes. Get rid of the derby atmosphere which is a nusiance IMHO. 1 fish from every set of tags purchased may be used on an "undersized" fish. The remaining tags shall conform to the slot limit.

Equitable, fair across users, and an improvement over both the current and historic management approach.

Of course probably a third of all lings taken are probably poached.

[Nwbrewer]

Of course probably a third of all lings taken are probably poached.

What's that based on? Maybe I'm just oblivious, but the only poaching I've ever witnessed was somebody fishing from the end of the jetty at EUP.

[CaptnJack]

Of course probably a third of all lings taken are probably poached.

What's that based on? Maybe I'm just oblivious, but the only poaching I've ever witnessed was somebody fishing from the end of the jetty at EUP.

I see people clearly bottom fishing alot - outside of ling season and over reefs. They are not targeting sole and rockfish are closed in areas 9 and 10. Sure they could be taking cabbies... but color me skeptical.

[Nwbrewer]

I'd guess their at the very least contributing to the reduction in the species through terminal by-catch. That sucks.

[whatevah]

I see people clearly bottom fishing alot - outside of ling season and over reefs. They are not targeting sole and rockfish are closed in areas 9 and 10. Sure they could be taking cabbies... but color me skeptical.

Could be Cabezon - or flatfish of various varieties - or Kelp Greenling (though I suspect they're not available in any big numbers in areas 9 and 10). Lots of people just want to fish because they enjoy the activity - they'll release whatever interesting critters they haul up - or maybe they'll keep some strange trophy like a Buffalo Sculpin. I'd be surprised if poaching of Lingcod outside the season accounts for a third of the harvest. I would be less surprised to learn that a third of the overall harvest is poached (ie, people taking multiple fish or fish outside the slot during the season).

I think the biggest problem with the slot limit on spearfishers is that it is impossible to reliably abide by the rule. People are being given the impression that the slot limits for spearfishers are a little "fuzzy" - that enforcement folks will be lenient. But that's not good enough for me when there are considerable fines. Additionally, this encourages people to stretch the rules - and pretty soon you have people no longer treating the rules with any respect. It's counter-productive. WDFW have no idea what represents the typical range of Lingcod sizes taken by spearfishers prior to the slot limit being enacted - 26" to 36" probably was about average - the sizes of fish that people typically want to harvest. Now, if you get a fish that's outside of that typical range (intentionally or not), you're liable to get slapped with a big fine. WDFW have no good means for monitoring the effect that the spearfishing slot limit has on the resource - they don't intend to do anything different in the future. The ONLY reason they placed the slot limit on spearfishers was the loud whining of angling groups - same reason for the shorter season. Spearfishing is the cleaner and more efficient fishery, yet it is being penalized. WDFW's policies are most often based on political wrangling instead of science, and our lame commission is ineffective - they go right along with whatever the WDFW folks suggest instead of keeping them true to their mission and getting them funding for actual science.

Yes, there are slot limits for spearing of various species in other areas, but the reality is that people are killing fish, measuring them, and tossing them away if they don't fit the slot. Sometimes they then go on to kill more fish. I've seen evidence of this "enforcement success" in a number of different jurisdictions now. We've gone from an arrangement where many illegal fish were taken knowingly by some, to regulations which will have the same minority poaching with the addition of some new "poaching" by people who really do want to respect the rules. There will be waste of Lingcod, and there will be more bycatch of rockfish because of the smaller slot for anglers. What is the overall effect of these regulation changes? Nobody knows. WDFW are making wild guesses based on old research into breeding effectiveness of various sized fishes. They're not tracking anything, and they have no way to know if this change is positive or if it is in fact back-firing. Remember all the horrible mistakes in regulation of fisheries in the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, etc? Here we go again - more guesses and almost certainly more mistakes. Not enough science and too much political posturing.

I like the idea of a Lingcod catch card too - when I suggested it to the WDFW folks they blew me off with an off-hand "that'd cost money and we're not ready to do that yet". Instead they've chosen to turn the regulations into a joke. The seasons for Lingcod spearing and for spot prawns are so short that people are taking more and more risk to get their fishing opportunity. We're going to lose more and more divers and boaters - and why? Our department is really not serving us well at all.

[rjarnold]

Well said... er, written

I see people clearly bottom fishing alot - outside of ling season and over reefs. They are not targeting sole and rockfish are closed in areas 9 and 10. Sure they could be taking cabbies... but color me skeptical.

Could be Cabezon - or flatfish of various varieties - or Kelp Greenling (though I suspect they're not available in any big numbers in areas 9 and 10). Lots of people just want to fish because they enjoy the activity - they'll release whatever interesting critters they haul up - or maybe they'll keep some strange trophy like a Buffalo Sculpin. I'd be surprised if poaching of Lingcod outside the season accounts for a third of the harvest. I would be less surprised to learn that a third of the overall harvest is poached (ie, people taking multiple fish or fish outside the slot during the season).

I think the biggest problem with the slot limit on spearfishers is that it is impossible to reliably abide by the rule. People are being given the impression that the slot limits for spearfishers are a little "fuzzy" - that enforcement folks will be lenient. But that's not good enough for me when there are considerable fines. Additionally, this encourages people to stretch the rules - and pretty soon you have people no longer treating the rules with any respect. It's counter-productive. WDFW have no idea what represents the typical range of Lingcod sizes taken by spearfishers prior to the slot limit being enacted - 26" to 36" probably was about average - the sizes of fish that people typically want to harvest. Now, if you get a fish that's outside of that typical range (intentionally or not), you're liable to get slapped with a big fine. WDFW have no good means for monitoring the effect that the spearfishing slot limit has on the resource - they don't intend to do anything different in the future. The ONLY reason they placed the slot limit on spearfishers was the loud whining of angling groups - same reason for the shorter season. Spearfishing is the cleaner and more efficient fishery, yet it is being penalized. WDFW's policies are most often based on political wrangling instead of science, and our lame commission is ineffective - they go right along with whatever the WDFW folks suggest instead of keeping them true to their mission and getting them funding for actual science.

Yes, there are slot limits for spearing of various species in other areas, but the reality is that people are killing fish, measuring them, and tossing them away if they don't fit the slot. Sometimes they then go on to kill more fish. I've seen evidence of this "enforcement success" in a number of different jurisdictions now. We've gone from an arrangement where many illegal fish were taken knowingly by some, to regulations which will have the same minority poaching with the addition of some new "poaching" by people who really do want to respect the rules. There will be waste of Lingcod, and there will be more bycatch of rockfish because of the smaller slot for anglers. What is the overall effect of these regulation changes? Nobody knows. WDFW are making wild guesses based on old research into breeding effectiveness of various sized fishes. They're not tracking anything, and they have no way to know if this change is positive or if it is in fact back-firing. Remember all the horrible mistakes in regulation of fisheries in the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, etc? Here we go again - more guesses and almost certainly more mistakes. Not enough science and too much political posturing.

I like the idea of a Lingcod catch card too - when I suggested it to the WDFW folks they blew me off with an off-hand "that'd cost money and we're not ready to do that yet". Instead they've chosen to turn the regulations into a joke. The seasons for Lingcod spearing and for spot prawns are so short that people are taking more and more risk to get their fishing opportunity. We're going to lose more and more divers and boaters - and why? Our department is really not serving us well at all.

[Seaslave]

Totally agree. thanks for posting.


-Mathue

Could be Cabezon - or flatfish of various varieties - or Kelp Greenling (though I suspect they're not available in any big numbers in areas 9 and 10). Lots of people just want to fish because they enjoy the activity - they'll release whatever interesting critters they haul up - or maybe they'll keep some strange trophy like a Buffalo Sculpin. I'd be surprised if poaching of Lingcod outside the season accounts for a third of the harvest. I would be less surprised to learn that a third of the overall harvest is poached (ie, people taking multiple fish or fish outside the slot during the season).

I think the biggest problem with the slot limit on spearfishers is that it is impossible to reliably abide by the rule. People are being given the impression that the slot limits for spearfishers are a little "fuzzy" - that enforcement folks will be lenient. But that's not good enough for me when there are considerable fines. Additionally, this encourages people to stretch the rules - and pretty soon you have people no longer treating the rules with any respect. It's counter-productive. WDFW have no idea what represents the typical range of Lingcod sizes taken by spearfishers prior to the slot limit being enacted - 26" to 36" probably was about average - the sizes of fish that people typically want to harvest. Now, if you get a fish that's outside of that typical range (intentionally or not), you're liable to get slapped with a big fine. WDFW have no good means for monitoring the effect that the spearfishing slot limit has on the resource - they don't intend to do anything different in the future. The ONLY reason they placed the slot limit on spearfishers was the loud whining of angling groups - same reason for the shorter season. Spearfishing is the cleaner and more efficient fishery, yet it is being penalized. WDFW's policies are most often based on political wrangling instead of science, and our lame commission is ineffective - they go right along with whatever the WDFW folks suggest instead of keeping them true to their mission and getting them funding for actual science.

Yes, there are slot limits for spearing of various species in other areas, but the reality is that people are killing fish, measuring them, and tossing them away if they don't fit the slot. Sometimes they then go on to kill more fish. I've seen evidence of this "enforcement success" in a number of different jurisdictions now. We've gone from an arrangement where many illegal fish were taken knowingly by some, to regulations which will have the same minority poaching with the addition of some new "poaching" by people who really do want to respect the rules. There will be waste of Lingcod, and there will be more bycatch of rockfish because of the smaller slot for anglers. What is the overall effect of these regulation changes? Nobody knows. WDFW are making wild guesses based on old research into breeding effectiveness of various sized fishes. They're not tracking anything, and they have no way to know if this change is positive or if it is in fact back-firing. Remember all the horrible mistakes in regulation of fisheries in the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, etc? Here we go again - more guesses and almost certainly more mistakes. Not enough science and too much political posturing.

I like the idea of a Lingcod catch card too - when I suggested it to the WDFW folks they blew me off with an off-hand "that'd cost money and we're not ready to do that yet". Instead they've chosen to turn the regulations into a joke. The seasons for Lingcod spearing and for spot prawns are so short that people are taking more and more risk to get their fishing opportunity. We're going to lose more and more divers and boaters - and why? Our department is really not serving us well at all.

[CPMurray]

So here's a question. How would you change it? Bear in mind three things that need to happen:

If those are the ground rules then nothing is really going to change. I'd seriously question the ground rules, though:

1. Protect young ling cod

Is there any evidence that young ling cod need protecting from spearfishers? As the responses have shown, you're only likely to have some fish that were 1/4" too small being thrown away. Spearfishers can see the fish that they're shooing, they're not going to bother with anything 12" long, so there's not a whole lot of point in having minimum size limits just because anglers have them.

2. Protect the female breeding population (they are the ones over 36")

I've learned how to tell the difference of a male and female ling cod. You have to examine the genital area closely. There are big male ling cod over 36 inches also. Not every ling over 36 inches is a female. I'm sure fish breed as soon as they can and its not just limited to fish over 36 inches. Do the biologists really have enough data on this? I know for a fact that ling cod can live up to 20 years or longer. I have also seen smaller ling cod guard there nests.

This seems to be the real issue, and clearly based on this thread, the point to the community isn't getting across.

3. Provide equity in regulations with the angling community

That sounds like a requirement from a bureaucrat. Angling and spearfishing aren't the same thing and its useless to start out with the assumption that they need to be treated like they're the same thing.

[CPMurray]

So.... I have an addendum to the slot limit rules... As it turns out...Trying to be fair about this concept... hitting the slot limit is turning out to be not entirely as hard as I had anticipated. We have harvested over a dozen fish and have yet to miss the slot limit.

I must add though,.. at first, it was just pure luck that we did not shoot a fish that was not in the limit.. we just got lucky. But by bringing the fish to the surface and measuring them, we have gained the experience to judge what the size looks like under water compared to the actual size of the fish on the surface. The problem here is that most spearos dont get to go most everyday to gain this experience and only get a couple days to hunt given our extremely short season.
And given this fact... once again, at first.... hitting the slot.. is pure chance.
I think that given a longer season, one could get quite good at guessing the size underwater.... I think the solution here is to keep the slot limits, but to compensate, make the seasons longer....

It just takes 1/2 inch either way and your busted, and yes you were lucky to see that many ling cod to choose from and harvest over 12 that were in the slot.. Now really.... tell us the real story.

Perhaps if I am elected to the board, I can actually get these opinions heard.......

[CPMurray]

Well said... er, written

I see people clearly bottom fishing alot - outside of ling season and over reefs. They are not targeting sole and rockfish are closed in areas 9 and 10. Sure they could be taking cabbies... but color me skeptical.

Could be Cabezon - or flatfish of various varieties - or Kelp Greenling (though I suspect they're not available in any big numbers in areas 9 and 10). Lots of people just want to fish because they enjoy the activity - they'll release whatever interesting critters they haul up - or maybe they'll keep some strange trophy like a Buffalo Sculpin. I'd be surprised if poaching of Lingcod outside the season accounts for a third of the harvest. I would be less surprised to learn that a third of the overall harvest is poached (ie, people taking multiple fish or fish outside the slot during the season).

I think the biggest problem with the slot limit on spearfishers is that it is impossible to reliably abide by the rule. People are being given the impression that the slot limits for spearfishers are a little "fuzzy" - that enforcement folks will be lenient. But that's not good enough for me when there are considerable fines. Additionally, this encourages people to stretch the rules - and pretty soon you have people no longer treating the rules with any respect. It's counter-productive. WDFW have no idea what represents the typical range of Lingcod sizes taken by spearfishers prior to the slot limit being enacted - 26" to 36" probably was about average - the sizes of fish that people typically want to harvest. Now, if you get a fish that's outside of that typical range (intentionally or not), you're liable to get slapped with a big fine. WDFW have no good means for monitoring the effect that the spearfishing slot limit has on the resource - they don't intend to do anything different in the future. The ONLY reason they placed the slot limit on spearfishers was the loud whining of angling groups - same reason for the shorter season. Spearfishing is the cleaner and more efficient fishery, yet it is being penalized. WDFW's policies are most often based on political wrangling instead of science, and our lame commission is ineffective - they go right along with whatever the WDFW folks suggest instead of keeping them true to their mission and getting them funding for actual science.

Yes, there are slot limits for spearing of various species in other areas, but the reality is that people are killing fish, measuring them, and tossing them away if they don't fit the slot. Sometimes they then go on to kill more fish. I've seen evidence of this "enforcement success" in a number of different jurisdictions now. We've gone from an arrangement where many illegal fish were taken knowingly by some, to regulations which will have the same minority poaching with the addition of some new "poaching" by people who really do want to respect the rules. There will be waste of Lingcod, and there will be more bycatch of rockfish because of the smaller slot for anglers. What is the overall effect of these regulation changes? Nobody knows. WDFW are making wild guesses based on old research into breeding effectiveness of various sized fishes. They're not tracking anything, and they have no way to know if this change is positive or if it is in fact back-firing. Remember all the horrible mistakes in regulation of fisheries in the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, etc? Here we go again - more guesses and almost certainly more mistakes. Not enough science and too much political posturing.

I like the idea of a Lingcod catch card too - when I suggested it to the WDFW folks they blew me off with an off-hand "that'd cost money and we're not ready to do that yet". Instead they've chosen to turn the regulations into a joke. The seasons for Lingcod spearing and for spot prawns are so short that people are taking more and more risk to get their fishing opportunity. We're going to lose more and more divers and boaters - and why? Our department is really not serving us well at all.

Good response, well written. I nominate you

[CaptnJack]

So much for "anglers" are selective fishers, I'll just keep a hook overboard in closed rockfish areas... Your argument that they are just doing so for the fun of having a rod overboard is hilarious. And people wonder why just about everything but browns are depressed. Whatevah, I have seen people taking lings in MPAs and out of season too, I reported them. I don't actually have a problem with the slot limit. If you do, go to Wayne P. and the Commission bitch to them, I'm sure both'll listen intently, maybe not. This is like the artifical reef arguments. If you want something done it ain't happening on NWDC...

[whatevah]

So much for "anglers" are selective fishers, I'll just keep a hook overboard in closed rockfish areas...

I agree - there's always going to be some bycatch, though I think that educating anglers and teaching them what the environments are like, the habits of various species, and different gear and technique options can reduce it significantly. I personally think there is room in the recovering resource for some bycatch and some catch and release mortality - it might slow the recovery some, but it shouldn't cause it to fail - the key will be to minimize these stresses. The bigger problems are environmental, and legal commercial and recreational fisheries, I feel.

Your argument that they are just doing so for the fun of having a rod overboard is hilarious.

Is it? Why? I can tell you that I know many people who go do some bottom fishing when Lingcod and rockfish are closed. I do it myself. I take my daughter out in my boat to camp in the islands in the summer, and we'll enjoy the sunshine while she catches sole, staghorn sculpins etc. I release them, and I am confident that mortality is low. It's great. It doesn't mean we're poaching Lingcod as you asserted earlier. Nor does it mean that we're causing any significant rockfish mortality. Occasionally we'll catch a Copper Rockfish while trying to get Kelp Greenling, but they're very common in these areas and their mortality upon release is probably not as high as one might assume given the shallow (under 30') depths we're in.

And people wonder why just about everything but browns are depressed.

Lots of people are wondering that. Until we do the scienctific studies, nobody knows, and many will keep guessing, pointing fingers and making excuses. Unfortunately, WDFW falls largely into that camp. Until recently, everybody jumped to the conclusion that salmon mortality was largely accounted for on the way out to marine waters - we finally used science to find out that we might've been barking up the wrong tree all along. It's too bad we don't spend money on science first, instead of leaping to the "obvious" answer and applying all our time and money there first.

Whatevah, I have seen people taking lings in MPAs and out of season too, I reported them. I don't actually have a problem with the slot limit. If you do, go to Wayne P. and the Commission bitch to them, I'm sure both'll listen intently, maybe not. This is like the artifical reef arguments. If you want something done it ain't happening on NWDC...

Okay - so I'm trying to figure out why you're being argumentative and confrontational if you don't have a problem with the slot limit and you believe that discussion here is worthless. Why read or respond at all? I have had a number of discussions with Wayne and others at WDFW - I've communicated with the commission via letters, public meetings, and participated in advisory boards. Wayne is a good guy with amazing knowledge - but he agrees with me that we do not have the data we need and many more studies are needed to get the resource management right. He is somewhat more optimistic about the value of the sparse data we do have than I am. What I have learned is that individual concerns are filed in the round file marked "trash" whether they have merit or not. It doesn't matter if thousands of spearfishers write individually with the same valid concerns: we'll be ignored. The only voices with any weight at WDFW and with the F&W commission are those associated with an acronym. You have to be part of some kind of organization that responds loudly and angrily - if you can threaten noticeably reduced license sales you're guaranteed to be heard.

I am glad to see some agreement about this subject here and in other forums. Hopefully by involving more and more folks we can try to get some realistic spearfishing regulation changes when they're next reviewed. I like science, and the politics I've seen relating to management of this resource sicken me to be honest; but, if you can't beat them, join them.

[CPMurray]

This is a response to spearo friend of mine that is not a member of NWDC ..... yet. One of his idea's is to get this club together or create one and go do some fish counting ourselves, say during the spawning season and see what's out there in specific areas. Then bounce our data off thier's. It would be great publicity, showing our conservation/concerns as divers and a great U/W picture oppurtunity. A picture may be worth a thousand words in this case, much better than $1000. in fines in the future.

Here's the letter from last year, from the director Phil Anderson.

I am responding to your e-mail of June 9, 2010. As you know you first e-mailed my office on June 6, 2010 and raised several issues, including the size limits for ling cod in Puget Sound, and shared some of your experiences as a professional and recreational diver. I asked one of our longtime marine fish managers to respond to your initial e-mail which he did on June 9, 2010. Your June 9, 2010 e-mail reiterated and expanded on your concerns and displeasure with our management approach.
You have suggested that there is a justification for an emergency rule to make several changes to the regulations relative to the harvest of ling cod in Puget Sound and the seasons in Hood Canal. You have suggested a six week season for all recreational fishers, a 2 fish bag limit, no size limits, and an opening or closing of all fishing in Hood Canal absent any individual species consideration. You also suggested that if I am the director that I be responsible and make these changes.
You should know that I took a very active part in crafting the regulation package that contained these regulations and that they have been adopted by our Fish and Wildlife Commission. Ling cod are a great fish, a very important part of our recreational fishery, and we will continue making every effort to rebuild this species while providing some limited harvest opportunities. The size limits were selected to protect the female spawning population and to avoid the needless harvest, and potential wastage, of very small fish that have little food value. The seasons for divers and pole fishers were selected to provide both sectors a fair harvest opportunity and to avoid conflicts between them. The bag limit of one was selected to provide as long of season as possible and still stay within an acceptable level of harvest, a two fish limit would result in a shorter season and fewer recreational fishers would be able to participate in the fishery.
I have done some diving and the lead member of our sport rule package development team is an active diver so we recognized that determining the length of fish underwater is not without its challenges. Nevertheless, we felt that having the size limits apply to the dive fishery was important and believed that diving community is largely a conservation minded group, would understand the intent of the regulation, and would make every effort to comply with the regulation. We also discussed the issue with our Enforcement Program and I am confident they will take a sensible approach to enforcing the regulations.
As for Hood Canal, I totally support managing salmon, bottomfish, and shellfish separately. Managing these species separately using the population and abundance information we have results in a comprehensive management approach thereby optimizing our goal of meeting our conservation objectives while providing for sustainable recreational harvest opportunities.
It sounds like we may have differing opinions on the appropriate approach to managing these resources but I have attempted to provide you an explanation and rationale for our regulation package. I hope you are able to get out and spend some quality time on the water this summer, that is if summer ever gets here.

One thing I want to add is a 24 inch ling cod can feed 4 people. They have food value. Two boneless fillets cut in half makes four serving sizes. Add a serving of coleslaw, steamed vegetables or rice.... yummm Sorry for getting off track.

[H20doctor]

i suggest tags.... we buy tags and kill them , no size limits ... the ling season this year was a joke

[rjarnold]

I'll reiterate what whatevah said:

"What I have learned is that individual concerns are filed in the round file marked "trash" whether they have merit or not. It doesn't matter if thousands of spearfishers write individually with the same valid concerns: we'll be ignored. The only voices with any weight at WDFW and with the F&W commission are those associated with an acronym."

I've seen this myself, and also think that places like NWDC are exactly the places to discuss these things to come up with potential solutions as a group. Maybe there is no solution, because we'll never have any kind of weight with the size of our group, but who knows... maybe someone will have a brilliant idea that WDFW will actually listen to.

And I also agree that a 24" fish will provide a meal for two very hungry people =D There's absolutely value in a fish that size (if there wasn't, why would that be the limit for other areas?), so there's no real justification for the 26" limit, at least, not one that they've shared.

[CPMurray]

Well the seasons over down here in the Sound. I made a total of three dives to spear fish. Passed up many small lings that probably were within the slot. This year I took two lings, one 26 inches at the KVA tower and one 35 inches at Blake Is. I guess I was lucky. My other buddies had to dump three fish just under 26 inches. That's three that I saw dumped on the two dives made at Blake Is.. On the bottom, I came across six different fish dead on the bottom. I didn't examine them to see if they were speared (chances are). The starfish sure like them. That's nine fish I witnessed wasted in two dives at Blake Is. That's just three short of a fish limit, six of us could leagally do in two different dives. What a waste. :angry:

Were making plans for a Neah bay trip for rock fish this year before more restrictions are made on them. It would be nice to put some fish in the freezer.

How did you other spearo's do this year? See any dead lings on the bottom?

[pensacoladiver]

Here's the letter from last year, from the director Phil Anderson.

We also discussed the issue with our Enforcement Program and I am confident they will take a sensible approach to enforcing the regulations.

Hahaha. thanks for posting that. If Phil Anderson really wrote that, then he has ABSOLUTELY no idea about what a "standard" is.

I find it laughable that someone in a publc office would be part of a rule making that puts an OBJECTIVE size limit "standard" on something and then believe the enforcement arm of the policy should use "SUBJECTIVE" judgement as to whether to enforce those laws.

I wonder if Phil Anderson would be willing to go to court with a spearo who shot a Ling that was 1 inch over size and go on record with his statement above.

Again, laughable.

[H20doctor]

I shot 2 cabbies.. And zero lings... If you're going to neah bay to fill the freezer take me with you