CCR Cave Certification

Curt McNamee · Post by **Curt McNamee** » Mon Apr 02, 2007 9:28 pm

Well, Mel and I are off to get our full "CCR Cave Certifications" in Florida on Tuesday

. Should be quite an experience.

The air temp down there right now is 80-85 with little humidity and the water temp in the caves is about 72 deg's year around.

We will be trying out new DUI 30/30's "Tropical Drysuits". They are suppose to breath and let your body moisture out of your suit (keeping you cooler) and keep the air in. We will give them a good test.

I will post a trip report when we get back.

Tangfish · Post by **Tangfish** » Mon Apr 02, 2007 11:11 pm

That's great! I was just exchanging emails from a diver down there today. You're in for some great diving. Post some photos!

scubagrunt · Post by **scubagrunt** » Tue Apr 03, 2007 1:51 am

Hi Calvin, it just so happens that i am takimg a small UW camera with me. will post on our return.

CaptnJack · Post by **CaptnJack** » Tue Apr 03, 2007 7:57 am

Are you already full cave? Or is this completing full cave on a CCR?

Hearing all the negative press about "Cave CCR" has been interesting (I don't dive RBs). I am definately curious about what you feel the course offered (your expectations) vs. what you got out of it (the results)

Richard

John Rawlings · Post by **John Rawlings** » Tue Apr 03, 2007 8:59 am

CaptnJack wrote: Hearing all the negative press about "Cave CCR" has been interesting (I don't dive RBs). I am definately curious about what you feel the course offered (your expectations) vs. what you got out of it (the results)

Richard

Hi, Richard!

We probably just read different forums, but I'm curious.....what are the sources you mention for "negative press" regarding Cave CCR?

I've been urged by a few of my compadres to go through CCR cave training, and I'd like to probe all of the facets of it prior to jumping.

- John

jeff98208 · Post by **jeff98208** » Tue Apr 03, 2007 9:02 am

ROCK ON

i so want to do the cave ccr but the bank tells me different. any who. take a mess of pics and do post them.... $\:D/$ in the mean time i'll be reading about some caves i wish i could dive

later!

CaptnJack · Post by **CaptnJack** » Tue Apr 03, 2007 9:32 am

I'll preface this by saying I'm not a RB diver. But there's alot of controversy over NSS-CDS getting involved in CCR training. Mostly from existing RB + full cave divers who see it as another certification they wil need to access CDS owned sites. And whether CDS is even really a non-profit anymore.

Been a big hulabaloo over this for the past ~8 months.
http://thedecostop.com/forums/showthrea ... hlight=CCR

There are a vew vocal folks ranting about this over on TDS. He's the most vocals succinct summary:
http://thedecostop.com/forums/showpost. ... ostcount=3

The debate is compounded by CDS's lack of insurance for board members so the nay-sayers claim that they would actually run for leadership positions, but won't without insurance.

Politics, oi vey.

I am just curious about someone's actual experience in a "CCR cave" course - to put my limited understanding of the debate in some context.

Richard

John Rawlings · Post by **John Rawlings** » Tue Apr 03, 2007 11:19 am

Wow....I just read through that DS thread.....there's more personal agendas there than you can shake a stick at!

In general, though, the impression I have is that it doesn't appear that the beef is with the overall quality of the training itself....it seems to be resistance by existing trained and experienced cave divers fearing that they will need to get certified in "CCR Cave" before they are allowed to dive certain systems.

Neither Curt or Mel are trained Cave Divers, so their CCR Cave course will necessarily be covering all of the basics that the experienced cavers in the DS thread clearly don't wish to go through again to get a CCR Cave cert.

- John

CaptnJack · Post by **CaptnJack** » Tue Apr 03, 2007 11:58 am

Yes, lots and lots of politics, agendas vendettas, you name it! (which is why I initially asked about prior cave training)

Mel, Curt who's your instructor?

I'm sure hope its a fine class probably with a couple CCR specific tweaks. I loved my Cavern+intro class (GUE Cave1) really had alot of fun.

Richard

Joshua Smith · Post by **Joshua Smith** » Tue Apr 03, 2007 12:01 pm

CaptnJack wrote:Yes, lots and lots of politics, agendas vendettas, you name it!

Richard

In the DIVING community? No way. You must be mistaken.

Dmitchell · Post by **Dmitchell** » Tue Apr 03, 2007 1:31 pm

CaptnJack wrote:Yes, lots and lots of politics, agendas vendettas, you name it! (which is why I initially asked about prior cave training)

Mel, Curt who's your instructor?

I'm sure hope its a fine class probably with a couple CCR specific tweaks. I loved my Cavern+intro class (GUE Cave1) really had alot of fun.

Richard

Mel and Curt are very well connected in the diving community and especially in the much smaller Rebreather community. Being that Mel wrote the class manuals for both the KISS and Copis Meg rebreathers and is a TDI Instructor Trainer for just about everything, I'm fairly confident that they were well informed before choosing an instructor/agency.

Dave

CaptnJack · Post by **CaptnJack** » Tue Apr 03, 2007 1:44 pm

I know, that's why I would like to know who they decided to go with :hello2: And of course class reports are most welcome too!

Richard

Curt McNamee · Post by **Curt McNamee** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 10:19 pm

Well, Mel and I made it through a very intense, grueling week of CCR Cave diving training.

I have to say, it was the hardest thing I have ever been through.

If you think you are good in open water, just take a "Full Cave" course and it will humble you alot.

Our instructor was John P. Jones who lives close to all the main caves in Lake City, FL.

John is a very active cave and CCR instructor and dives an Optima CCR.

Our training was long and hard. At night, I was dreaming about keeping my feet up, proper trim and the "frog kick" that I have always had a hard time with.

Imagine yourself 1500 ft back in a cave at a 90 ft depth. Your instructor takes you over to a rock, turns out all the lights and then expects you to find the "guide line" which is somewhere in the cave. You tie your saftey line to the rock with all the lights out in total darkness and start searching for the guide line which is your life line back to the surface.

If you were not paying attention to the cave and where that guide line was, you would have a terrible time finding it.

One of the other drills is called "bump and run". You and your buddy are on the main guide line and you have to follow it out with no lights. The leader follows the line for awhile then stops. The person behind moves forward until they bump into the person in front, gives an ok tug on a fin and then the person in front moves again. You do this all the way out of the cave simulating a silt-out with no visibility.

The caves are very beautifull and the system is very protected by all the divers.

Because of the damage potential, they do not want you to wear gloves in the caves. One our first day at "Ginnie Springs" I wore my finger tips off pulling through the cave against the water flow (the cave is lime stone but feels like lava rock). I guess they figure you will learn the correct pulling technique if you have to pay with your finger tips.

The main things that you learn in a Cave Class is that you can never drop your feet, you have to have perfect boyancy control, be organized in your thoughts about what is ahead of you and your surroundings, and keeping your cool in a very stressfull environment.

The skills of running lines, following instructions and dive plans are also focused on very strongly.

When you are doing all these things all at the same time and keeping up with the proper operation of you Rebreather, you are a very busy person.

What a great personal challenge!!!!!!, we got through it and it has made a better diver out of me.

We will post some pictures soon.

Sergeant Pepper · Post by **Sergeant Pepper** » Wed Apr 11, 2007 1:03 am

It sounds pretty harrowing and grueling. Congratulations on your certification.

dsteding · Post by **dsteding** » Wed Apr 11, 2007 9:53 am

Curt-

Thanks for the report, I too can't wait to see the pictures.

One question (and I'm not cave certified, but am cave-curious). How'd you manage gas planning for the team using CCR? I assume you had bailout bottles, but what were the air-sharing protocols for the team if you had to come off the loop or had to share gas?

Curt McNamee · Post by **Curt McNamee** » Wed Apr 11, 2007 11:02 am

dsteding wrote:Curt-

Thanks for the report, I too can't wait to see the pictures.

One question (and I'm not cave certified, but am cave-curious). How'd you manage gas planning for the team using CCR? I assume you had bailout bottles, but what were the air-sharing protocols for the team if you had to come off the loop or had to share gas?

That is a very good question and we were wondering about how that worked before we started our course.

Because we are on rebreathers, it changes a few things. This is how you figure out a dive plan:

In this case we will have a two person dive team each carrying 80 cu ft of bailout gas. We will use the team bailout concept which means one person can use the cumulative amount of team gas available. The variables that you have to know before you calculate your plan are:

1) The highest sac rate of the two divers
2) The average depth of the cave system you will be penetrating
3) The feet per minute that you can travel on the way back out of the cave
4) The amount of bailout gas between the two divers.

Lets say the highest sac rate between the two divers is .8 cu ft/min, your average depth will be 66 ft and you can travel at 50 ft/min on the way out.

Using the rule of thirds, you can use 2/3 of your gas to get you back out. Remember, you are not on O/C and you are not using any of that gas getting in.

Based on that calculation, you would have 106 cu ft of gas to get one person back out at a usage rate of 2.4 cu ft/min worst case. This gives you 44 min of bail out, still having 1/3 left for reserve.

If you have 44 min of time and you can travel at 50 ft/min, that means you can go back into the cave 2,200 ft spend as much time as you like (within the limits of your CCR), turn around and come out. From that point you have enough O/C gas to get one person back out with a 1/3 reserve left over.

The huge advantage of a CCR in cave diving is that you have much more time to deal with a problem when you are on your CCR, 4-5 hrs with all the supplies topped up. You do not have that with O/C. On O/C you are always have the time pressure of the limited amount of gas on your back.

CCR's in caves rock!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! $\:D/$

Joshua Smith · Post by **Joshua Smith** » Wed Apr 11, 2007 11:10 am

that means you can go back into the cave 2,200 ft spend as much time as you like (within the limits of your CCR), turn around and come out.

That's just cool.

I got the CCR bug bad! Is there any cure?

dsteding · Post by **dsteding** » Wed Apr 11, 2007 11:23 am

Curt McNamee wrote:
dsteding wrote:Curt-

Thanks for the report, I too can't wait to see the pictures.

One question (and I'm not cave certified, but am cave-curious). How'd you manage gas planning for the team using CCR? I assume you had bailout bottles, but what were the air-sharing protocols for the team if you had to come off the loop or had to share gas?
That is a very good question and we were wondering about how that worked before we started our course.

Because we are on rebreathers, it changes a few things. This is how you figure out a dive plan:

In this case we will have a two person dive team each carrying 80 cu ft of bailout gas. We will use the team bailout concept which means one person can use the cumulative amount of team gas available. The variables that you have to know before you calculate your plan are:

1) The highest sac rate of the two divers
2) The average depth of the cave system you will be penetrating
3) The feet per minute that you can travel on the way back out of the cave
4) The amount of bailout gas between the two divers.

Lets say the highest sac rate between the two divers is .8 cu ft/min, your average depth will be 66 ft and you can travel at 50 ft/min on the way out.

Using the rule of thirds, you can use 2/3 of your gas to get you back out. Remember, you are not on O/C and you are not using any of that gas getting in.

Based on that calculation, you would have 106 cu ft of gas to get one person back out at a usage rate of 2.4 cu ft/min worst case. This gives you 44 min of bail out, still having 1/3 left for reserve.

If you have 44 min of time and you can travel at 50 ft/min, that means you can go back into the cave 2,200 ft spend as much time as you like (within the limits of your CCR), turn around and come out. From that point you have enough O/C gas to get one person back out with a 1/3 reserve left over.

The huge advantage of a CCR in cave diving is that you have much more time to deal with a problem when you are on your CCR, 4-5 hrs with all the supplies topped up. You do not have that with O/C. On O/C you are always have the time pressure of the limited amount of gas on your back.

CCR's in caves rock!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! $\:D/$

Thanks Curt, I have a few more questions:

1) I'm assuming this means (since you are planning based on total OC gas for the team) that you'd have to practice passing bottles, if you were 2200 feet back (using your example) and one person had a CCR failure, you'd get almost out before their 80 goes dry, what do you do then? Signal the other teammate you are LOA and have them pass off their bottle? Also, it may be unrealistic to plan for multiple failures, but that does leave the other diver without a bailout bottle . . .

2) Why thirds on your bailout gas? My understanding of thirds in the OC context is that it allows you to get yourself and your teammate out if one goes OOA at the worst possible moment, here you have bailout gas for one way egresses for one diver. But related to that, maybe I answered my own question, I'd guess the answer to (1) above is that you wouldn't breathe your 80 down below that third, conceivably giving the other diver some bailout gas at all times . . .

3) Did you do deco? If so, what is the contingency for gas planning if you have to come off the CCR? Drop deco bottles? Surface support?

Sorry if these are pedantic questions, I'm curious how all this works.

-Doug

Sounder · Post by **Sounder** » Wed Apr 11, 2007 11:35 am

I too am very curious and had the same questions. (Sits down quietly waiting for class to resume)

CaptnJack · Post by **CaptnJack** » Wed Apr 11, 2007 11:41 am

No CCR training here but the last 1/3rd is reserve. So the 2/3rds to get out puts the CCR diver in the same place as an OC diver exiting - 1/3rd left as a fudge factor.

I don't know anyone diving who's able to plan for multiple major failures.

dsteding · Post by **dsteding** » Wed Apr 11, 2007 11:50 am

CaptnJack wrote:No CCR training here but the last 1/3rd is reserve. So the 2/3rds to get out puts the CCR diver in the same place as an OC diver exiting - 1/3rd left as a fudge factor.

I don't know anyone diving who's able to plan for multiple major failures.

Ahh, I get it. For OC, you'd subtract your rock bottom, then take a third of the remaining gas to go in and turn at 2/3rds usable plus your RB, right?

Here, you are "turning" on 2/3rds of your gas, and the other third is your rock bottom? Am I getting this right or completely crossed up?

I agree, tough to plan for multiple major failures, sometime it is just not your day . . .

CaptnJack · Post by **CaptnJack** » Wed Apr 11, 2007 12:04 pm

There's not really a rock bottom. For NDL cave dives in MX we didn't subtract 500 as a default rock bottom then figure our turn. We just figured our turn.
E.g. 3100 minus 500 for pen = 2600 turn. Or 2900 minus 400 pen then 2500 turn, etc.

Then again the most stops we ever did was one mins each from 30ft. Takes about the same amount of time to do that as setting up the reel. And if you are exiting OOA then you're leaving the reel.

With deco there are deep stops to consider but any time on a different bottle is not included. E.g. there's no OOA on backgas plus lost deco gas.

Joshua Smith · Post by **Joshua Smith** » Wed Apr 11, 2007 12:19 pm

dsteding wrote:
I agree, tough to plan for multiple major failures, sometime it is just not your day . . .

I've heard it said that you can plan for everything except for the thing that kills you.......

CaptnJack · Post by **CaptnJack** » Wed Apr 11, 2007 12:37 pm

Once you start planning multiple major failures you quickly get to the point where you can't dive.

lamont · Post by **lamont** » Wed Apr 11, 2007 2:05 pm

CaptnJack wrote:Once you start planning multiple major failures you quickly get to the point where you can't dive.

can't dive until NASA builds a global meteor shield... never know when one'll hit you when you're diving and ruin your day...

Northwest Dive Club