thoughts on dive schools

[kat]

i was hoping to get your views and experiences as far as the different agencies go.
good experiences and bad.
i have my open water certification through padi, and wish to continue my education. i just want to see which approach would be best for me.
i welcome past links too.

i apologize in advance if this is a can of worms

[spatman]

hi kat

this topic can definitely open a can of worms, and devolve into a my-agency-is-better-than=X-agency thread - something we hopefully can avoid.

i think what most people here are going to tell you is that the agency is secondary and it's the instructor that matters most. if you have specific classes in mind, i'm sure you'll get plenty of good recommendations for quality instructors.

[kat]

i will not argue the importance of the instructor. i was thinking more along the lines of depth of information, schools of thought, philosophies, etc...
also, which programs are interchangeable? has anyone had issue with this?

[Pez7378]

Kat,

There are some of us who only know one agency. I've got several cards through Naui. I've only had three instructors. Most people will say it's all about the instructor, regardless of the agency and this is probably true, but it is also about what it is you as the student want to learn.

Some people just want to know how to dive, some people want to know how to dive well and some people want to know how to dive perfectly. Some instructors will tell you what you need to know to conduct the same number of descents and ascents. Some instructors will tell you how to do it safely, and some will teach you what you need to know to understand all the physics involved, why it's important and how it applies to your diving.

When I took my AOW, I still didn't know how to dive. In that class, I learned about Gas management, bouyancy and trim, midwater navigation, SMB deployment, equipment configurations, Buddy skills, dive planning and so much more.

I was influenced by my instructor Bob (Grateful Diver), my fellow AOW student Doug (DSteding), and our divemaster Marc (Blitz) (Thanks for not drowning me!). I wanted to dive the way they did, looking completely comfortable in the water, streamlined, stable, rock solid. That was the standard that I had set for myself, and to be honest, I'm still trying to get there. After maybe 100 or more dives, I took Intro to Tech, and after that class, I found that I'm much more comfortable and have more control than I thought possible.

After all that, I guess my point is this. Don't look for an "agency". Look for people who you want to model your diving after. Dive with as many folks as you can. Gain experience. Enjoy your dives. And don't stop asking questions. I've said it before, and I'll say it again. One of the best things that ever happened to me as far as my diving education goes, is that Dsteding suggested that I consider Grateful Diver as my AOW instructor.

[Dusty2]

Hi Kat, I'll chime in early here with my opinion which I feel is pretty open. At least through AOW it's pretty much a toss up which agency you go with and they all honer each others certs to the best of my knowledge. I took OW thru padi just like you and then did the rest thru NAUI. Not because I felt it was better simply because I liked the instructor and the way he taught.

All of the agencies pretty much read off of the same sheet of music as far as classroom instructions there are some differences in the way it is presented but not a whole lot. It really is a mater of the teacher rather than the school. Most of the agency's have crossover provisions for instructors so you know there can't be that much difference and one card will be as good as another. However there is allot of difference in teaching methods and philosophies among instructors. We have several really good instructors here on the board. you are better off to just talk to people you dive with and get a feel of what they think of the person that did there instruction. Then talk to some of the instructors and see if there is a good feeling about what they say. I won't recommend anyone in particular simply because I think anyone of the instructors here is fully qualified and will give you good training. How far you plan to go could have a bearing on which instructor you should chose as will what mindset you chose to go with. Also I know you are from the Portland area so if you want someone local that will be a consideration. There are 2 or 3 of the people on the board that instruct out of that area but you probably will end up up here for your dives anyway.

[Sounder]

Yes, the instructor makes or breaks the quality of instruction. Beyond that, more of the differences in agencies come at the higher levels. There are agencies which are particularly devoted to cave diving, some stress the "team" concept, others seem to gravitate toward tropical diving and learning individual niche skills one at a time. These are just examples - each agency really "fills its own groove."

What are your goals? If you're looking for experience and a solid foundation, there are some instructors' names you'll start hearing over and over, recommended by people of all agency-backgrounds.

Also, beyond course work, getting hooked-up with a great mentor is invaluable. Keep your eye out for a "Big Buddy" dive sometime in the near future. That's a great way to come up, get hooked up with some mentors, and have a great day diving and socializing with some of the crazy folks you know from the board... and Penopolypants can coordinate a mean spread of good-eats!!

[Huskychemist]

I'll take a slightly different approach to this question. What others have said seems to ring true, though. The quality and attitude of the instructor is far more important than the agency.

But here's my slightly different take: I learned far more from my dive buddy (a.k.a. mentor) than I ever did from any classes. Yes, I learned a lot in my classes. I had very good instructors. Without my classes I wouldn't be diving. But the best learning happened for me AFTER a dive, when my buddy and I would debrief EVERY dive. Sometimes our comments would be brief. Other times the comments would last for the whole ride home, the stop at Burger King, all the way through washing the gear. Having a buddy that I could dive with regularly and TALK diving with was more important than any single class or organization.

Just a thought...

[Joshua Smith]

The best advice I can give you is to try and figure out what kind of diving you want to do, and what kind of diver you want to be. Then, seek out people who are doing the stuff you want to do, and who are doing it the way you want to do it. Ask them where they got their training- as well as the hundreds of other questions you will probably have. Most divers I know love to help newer divers out with advice.

I know that that sounds pretty vague, but "diving" is a big topic, and it means different things to different people. To a newcomer, it all looks the same- we put on a lot of heavy, expensive gear, and we go underwater, and god only knows what we do down there.....but, as I found out, there are a lot of schools of thought, and a confusing alphabet soup of training agencies out there. There's also a lot of ridiculous politics surrounding different agencies and schools of thought. At the end of the day, we all like being underwater and seeing all the cool stuff down there.....fish, shipwrecks, underwater caves, and so on. But there are many paths to the temple, so to speak. Ask a lot of questions. Think about the answers you hear. Ask more questions. And dive as much as you can- that's the best way to learn!

[cardiver]

i was hoping to get your views and experiences as far as the different agencies go.
good experiences and bad.
i have my open water certification through padi, and wish to continue my education. i just want to see which approach would be best for me.
i welcome past links too.

i apologize in advance if this is a can of worms

Ummm.....Kat. Those ain't worms!

[CaptnJack]

i have my open water certification through padi, and wish to continue my education. i just want to see which approach would be best for me.

At the OW level I would suggest that you don't yet know what you don't know. So for now get maybe ~25 "easy" dives under your belt, no need to push yourself for "deeper/longer" and all that jazz. Sites like EUP, Alki pipeline, Sund Rock, Octopus Hole, and Les Davis come to mind as suitable and within a reasonable distance to Portland. (I don't know much of anything closer). Then try to hook up with a good "advanced" instructor. Warning "advanced" really isn't very sophisticated. Its mostly about expanding your knowledge and experience down to <maybe> 100ft at an otherwise easy site. Or more challenging current intensive sites to max 70-80ft. The biggest misdirection you can take IMO is to get depth focused, those <30dive divers doing 100+ft dives are often just working with bravado over brains.

There are some good AOW instructors on this board that can help you polish your "shallow" skills (e.g. good buoyancy being hardest shallow) and start to safely push your OW depth limits. Most are happy to combine AOW with other stuff like nitrox or a drysuit orientation to round out your <100 dive education. After AOW now with ~32 dives I would just focus on building experience in a variety of sites/places/conditions until you have a better idea of where your interests lie.

As you can see, I definitely don't subscribe to the "P-valve specialty class" mentality lol.

[Kalatin]

Kat, I don't want to dismiss your question, but I have I will echo what others have said - it is all about the instructor and determining what type of diving you want to do down the road. No matter how in-depth the agency materials are or how great the doctrine of the particular agency is, for me it takes a good instructor to help me understand the material and help me with the in-water skills. I had one of those "AH HA" moments in a class tonight with partial pressures- I have looked at the same slide at least three times. I have had the same materials explained to me by numerous people on numerous occasions. I have read books about the subject (PADI, NAUI, IANTD, and UTD). It was the same basic information and I could do the math and understood the theory, but I didn't "get it." Tonight my instructor (BDub) explained it in a new way. I can now do nitrox math in my head. I calculated partial pressures in my head all the way home, because I was excited and I am a dork. It doesn't matter how good the materials are or how well the philosophy suits you if the instructor can't help you understand it.

That begs the question of how you pick a quality instructor, which was pretty daunting for me. There are several stand-out instructors on this board, which will give you some good leads. Another trick is to look for instructors who dive with their former students. My AOW class was five dives and nothing more. Without shelling out $$, there was no way my instructor was diving with any of his students again. In contrast, the great instructors I have gotten to know since then dive with their former students pretty regularly - they view teaching as both an opportunity to develop good divers, and also as a training ground for future dive buddies.

If I were you, I would forget the philosophies and materials for right now. Find some folks that you mesh well with and that are doing the type of diving you want to do. Dive with them. Dive with some other folks too, just to make sure. Ask a whole bunch of questions. You will figure out more quickly than you imagined who you want to take your training from.

[Dusty2]

I have to agree on the Practice, practice, practice. I wouldn't even consider AOW until you are in the 50+ dive range. Most everything interesting critter wise is in the OW depth range. Find some good dive buddies that will work with you to improve your skills. Work your way up slowly.

IMHO the most important single skill from the enjoyment standpoint is buoyancy and it can only be learned thru lots of down time. Get it down and everything changes.

[Tangfish]

Kat, I recommend taking your AOW class with Bob (GratefulDiver). He's got a very rigorous AOW course that's tailored specifically to PNW diving, something that you generally won't get out of the typical AOW class. He's also agnostic when it comes to diving agencies and other schools of thought when it comes to the various paths you can follow - I find this open-minded attitude about *ways* of diving to be more important than anything else, when it comes to a good instructor.

I've never taken a course with Bob, but I respect him as a diver, instructor and know that his AOW course is very good.

I also believe that people become better divers from switching up instructors (and even agencies) from certification to certification. I've learned all sorts of great skills from instructors that weren't in the books. Divers learn tricks and skills as they gain experience. Why not expose yourself to the greatest variety of these, by learning from as many good divers as possible?

Oh yeah, and I *strongly* agree with Dusty. You'll get the most out of your training and your diving by getting a good amount of dives between certifications. You *can* become a great diver by ploughing straight through all of the classes, but I personally think that a good combo of dives with buddies and classes once you feel that you definitely need them is the best route.

[selkie]

Kat,

Along the line of getting more dives in I will let you guys know when ever we are headed north to dive. We can help you explore more than Les Davis.

[kat]

thank you for your thoughts, i wasn't planning on taking the aow right now, not quite wet enough behind the ears yet. just trying to find my best path. what i am looking for is a strong foundation to build upon. i have been contemplating some of the commercial aspects as well, but at this point i am nowhere near ready for that.

also, is it "acceptable" by all agencies to skip the aow and do the full on specialties instead? i would think that all of the information and practice of a two day class would be more useful than just a quick intro and one dive to try. am i missing the point on that one?

and yes please selkie

[PeninsulaDiver]

Hi Kat,

I think you are on the right track. I agree wholeheartedly to the comment about “lots of diving between certifications”. For now, most of your diving should be working and concentrating on mastering buoyancy control. I went 10 years between Open Water and Advanced Open Water.

However, in my experience, most new divers who are looking for further training, after completing their initial open water course, automatically look at taking the Advanced Open Water course.

I am of the opinion that the next course after Open Water should be Rescue Diver and here is why; the Rescue Diver course will give you skills needed from day 1 of your diving career. Let’s say you and your dive buddy are newly certified, go out diving together and one of you panic at the surface or underwater. Could you handle this? Panic and emergency situations do not necessarily discriminate between brand new and seasoned divers. It occurs at the surface and at depth. So why not learn from the get-go how to handle this and other emergency situations?

NAUI offers this as a specialty course “NAUI Scuba Rescue Diver” where the pre-requisite is “NAUI Scuba Diver” or equivalent e.g.: “PADI Open Water Diver”. This is not to be confused with the “NAUI Advanced Scuba Rescue Diver” which does require “Advanced Open Water” to be completed first. The difference between the two rescue courses is that the Advanced Scuba Rescue Diver covers the entire Rescue Scuba Diver curriculum but adds leadership skills for those who desire to assume greater rescue capabilities during diving activities.

I should also add that NAUI does touch on this in it’s version of the Open Water course whereby the student is required to perform a rescue of an unconscious diver from depth, perform rescue breaths (another topic), and tow the victim 50yds.

I was certified PADI back in 1992 and "performing a rescue" wasn’t part of the PADI Open Water course. I am making the assumption that it has not been added. Someone please correct me if I am wrong.

As an alternative 2nd course, if it wasn’t taken during your open water training, I would take Nitrox Diver.

Above all, as I repeat myself, concentrate on mastering buoyancy.

Hope this helps.

-Mark

[Pinkpadigal]

also, is it "acceptable" by all agencies to skip the aow and do the full on specialties instead? i would think that all of the information and practice of a two day class would be more useful than just a quick intro and one dive to try. am i missing the point on that one?

I cannot speak for the other agencies, but the PADI Adventure Diver course is sometimes confused with AOW. This course is 3 or more dives, that give you a sample of what different dive enviroments are like. You then experience those enviroments with a PADI instructor. The cool thing about doing adventure dives is that you can do adventure dives 1 at a time, or up to 3 in a day.

There are many different adventure dives you can do. Each one of those adventure dives is the first dive in the PADI specialty course. If you would rather focus on one aspect of diving, then taking the specialty course is the way to go. Specialty courses are 2-4 dives, depending on the specialty. You can go right into taking a specialty course right out of open water. 2 of my favorite are Peak Performancy Buoyancy and Underwater Naturalist. There are a few that require you complete the AOW course first (like wreck), but most you can do right after OW.

For example, you are interested in night diving, but a bit nervous about going with just a buddy. You would just sign up for the adventure dive with the instructor. The instructor would go over the basic fundamentals of diving at night and you would dive with him/her. If you want to learn more, then continue on in the Night specialty course. You would do 2 more dives, focusing in on night navigation and a "light out" dive. There is a text book, and you typically spend about 2 hours classroom time with the instructor.

The PADI AOW course is a minimum of 5 adventure dives, and 2 of which must be a deep dive and a navigation dive. The rules on when you can take these dives in the course have changed a bit, recently. While many people jump into the AOW course right out of OW, many instructors (myself included) suggest you get some experience diving before going deep or diving at night. Good buoyancy control is important. I know several instructors who require 8-10 adventure dives before they will cert a diver AOW.

As of this month, you can now "skip" PADI AOW and go directly to the PADI Rescue course from OW, as long as you have completed 3 adventure dives, and one is navigation adventure dive. The reason for this is so when the diver is doing search patterns, he or she can use their compass effectivly. You are still required to complete AOW course to start the divemaster program, or to become a PADI Master Scuba Diver.

I hope this info helps a bit.

[Diver_C]

Finding a good instructor is a good thing, but looking back at the beginning of my diving career, the biggest and most important influences I had were my dive buddies. I started with diving with very good divers, in particular BbbleMkr and RSDancey, and they, amongst others, were a tremendous help. The more you dive the more it helps. You only dive so often in a class. Diving with good, experienced divers can help you tremendously with basic skills, as well as building on them. One learns the "how to" in class, but outside of class is where you really learn how to use and perfect what you learned in class. If you have good dive buddies with you, they'll be able to give you feedback, as well as answer questions. Best of luck!!

[Sounder]

I miss Ryan and Bubbles.

[RSdancey]

We miss everyone there too! You have NO IDEA how great you all have it, being able to do great open water, ocean diving any time you want with just a few hours prep time. In Atlanta we're really not that far from the ocean, but any ocean diving activity requires a lot of planning, substantial expense, and a 3-day weekend. We're going to check out the local quarry later this spring, but at best it's a place to practice skills & drills.

On the subject of training, here's my $0.02:

Take any open water class you can get into. You're learning the very basics. The difference between a great instructor, and a not so great instructor is probably meaningless. Read the coursework, and pay attention to the lectures; when you're in the pool, watch the instructors and follow their directions exactly, when you're in the ocean, do the same. You'll easily pass the course.

The day you pass OW, you should consider yourself at Day 0 of your real dive training. You should know that "good diving" comes from repetition, not coursework. You should know that "safe diving" comes from understanding the theory and practice of safe diving and actively using those principles when you dive, not from certification cards. At Day 0 of your dive training life, you should have 4 simple goals: Master your equipment, master your buoyancy, master your gas planning, and be a great team member.

You need to spend time in the water to master your equipment. You can't do it on land. And you don't have to do it deep. The top 30 feet of any dive is the place where you will be most tested. You can learn everything you need to know about your gear and your buoyancy control from 30fsw and up. You don't need anything more an OW certification for those kinds of dives. Even if you have a total failure and do an uncontrolled ascent, as long as you keep exhaling, you'll be just fine. Learn to be controlled, safe, and aware from 30fsw-0fsw, and everything else in your diving life will be much, much easier.

Repetition is the key to safety. You need to repeatedly do gas sharing drills. You need to repeatedly deploy SMBs. You need to repeatedly practice clearing your mask. (Switching to a backup mask is even better). These are things you can do on any dive. You're supposed to spend 3 minutes just hanging around at 15 feet, right? Make that skill training time on every dive you do, and you'll be a safer, better diver.

You need to spend time out of the water with a pencil and a piece of paper (or electronic tools you prefer). You need to learn enough about how the various gas laws effect your dive plan that you are comfortable knowing when you have enough gas, when you're reaching the edge of safety, and when you have gone past that edge. In your OW class you spent hours learning how to use a dive table to compute your no-deco limits. You will find out as soon as you start learning about gas planning that for most rec dives you'll do, those limits are irrelevant. Your dive times will be dictated by gas planning, not by no-deco limits. Until you intuitively know how to calculate Rock Bottom, and all the factors that go into that calculation, you are not a safe diver.

Part of being a safe diver means being a part of a team. As a new diver, you have no business being at any distance from your team member(s). If you can't reach out and touch them in a second or two, you're too far away. Until you understand that YOU are THEIR backup, you are not a safe diver. If you go walkabout, you endanger THEIR lives. Safe diving means taking responsibility for another person's life. If you're not willing to make that commitment, you shouldn't be in the water.

Being part of a team means being a good team member. It means showing up on time. It means having your gear in working order. It means having spares to help out when someone inevitably forgets/breaks/loses something. It means helping make the arrangements. It means helping to carry the gear. If you are not HELPING, you are not a good team member. Since you're the new diver, and you need the most help from other people in the water, you should want to be as helpful as possible in every other way. Make yourself wanted, and you'll never have a problem finding a team to dive with.

Some people can learn all they need to know about safe diving from reading and thinking. Other people need an external coach. You probably know which of those kinds of person you are. If you need a coach, invest the time in learning who in your area has a great reputation as a teacher, and get waitlisted for that person's training.

If you are the kind of person who doesn't need a coach, you still need a lot of feedback. You can't easily see yourself while you dive. You need buddies who are willing to give you uncompromised feedback. You need to be talking with, but mostly listening to, other divers who are more experienced than you are. If you find yourself in a place where you just can't figure something out (a fin technique, a gas management rule, etc.) you need to go get some formal training, and the rule about finding a coach applies to you as well. My direct observation is that some people can get pretty far down the path of being a "safe diver" before they need coaching, but everyone eventually needs one. Self-honesty is absolutely key here. Err on the side of caution (which is a general practice for all "safe divers" anyway!)

There are 2 courses I recommend that people take after they have their OW certifications. AOW+Nitrox, specifically so that you can use a safer gas mix on dives between 60 and 100fsw; and DIR-F, specifically so you can have a mental bar set for you in terms of what "Good Buoyancy Control" really means. After you've got OW, AOW+Nitrox and DIR-F training, you have a long, long time to go before you should consider paying anyone for additional training. That foundation is just the beginning of maybe your first 100+ dives. All that other stuff - trimix, overhead diving, rebreathers, it can all wait (and should wait) until you are a good, safe diver.

You should get CPR/First Aid training. Not for diving - for life. We live in a changed world and all of us should be ready to help when the person next to us needs it.

RyanD

[Zen Diver]

You should get CPR/First Aid training. Not for diving - for life. We live in a changed world and all of us should be ready to help when the person next to us needs it.
RyanD

Right on! It's a basic LIFE skill that everyone should have.

-Valerie
(hoping everyone knows CPR/1st Aid so someone can help ME if I'm in trouble!)

[LCF]

Ryan, that's an absolutely beautiful post.

[ArcticDiver]

Certainly the instructor is important. The particular agency is important too because although all the agencies are very similar at the level you speak of each has a bit of a different emphasis. But, you, the student, play a vital role that cannot be overlooked. In fact the most important part of the educational equation is you, the student.

What kind of student are you? Are you ready to learn? Are you ready to do the extra work necessary to benefit from the instruction? When you select an instructor do you take into consideration your learning style and how that matches to the instructor's teaching style? After all the same material can be presented by different instructors in radically different ways, some which may not click with you at all. Some instructors can adapt to different student needs and others cannot. It is up to you to select one from whom you can learn.

Fundamentally, you are responsible for all learning that takes place. In that framework the instructor has an important, but minority role, that of keeping you alive while you learn and presenting course information. It is up to you to actively listen, and learn.

[Grateful Diver]

Take any open water class you can get into. You're learning the very basics. The difference between a great instructor, and a not so great instructor is probably meaningless. Read the coursework, and pay attention to the lectures; when you're in the pool, watch the instructors and follow their directions exactly, when you're in the ocean, do the same. You'll easily pass the course.

Respectfully disagree with this statement. The shape of your learning curve is most significantly affected by two things ... (1) the way your dive instructor teaches you to think about diving, and (2) the amount of effort you are willing to put into learning how to dive. Only on the second of those two factors will the choice of instructor be unimportant.

I have for years gauged the quality of an instructor by the type of students they turn out and can say with confidence that the choice of instructors DOES matter in OW ... not only in terms of the education they'll provide, and the expectations they'll set ... but because your initial impression of what a diver SHOULD look like will be provided by your instructor. Students almost always emulate what they see the instructor doing ... and a bad instructor almost always turns out bad divers.

... the rest of your post was beautifully right-on ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[BASSMAN]

i was hoping to get your views and experiences as far as the different agencies go.
good experiences and bad.
i have my open water certification through padi, and wish to continue my education. i just want to see which approach would be best for me.
i welcome past links too.

i apologize in advance if this is a can of worms

Ummm.....Kat. Those ain't worms!

Kat,
As for me, I have trained up through Rescue Diver with the Padi and I did not have to do the three specialties so I could be called "Master Scuba Diver".
I felt it was important to me and to the buddies I dive with, to be trained at minimum, to the Rescue Diver level.
If and when you do this course you will find out that the Rescue Diver course is more about self rescue in a situation with a buddy in the water. I have not done any training with NAUI so I can't compare it. Although I think the AOW with NAUI would have been better for me, personally. That being said, I feel I have just scratched the surface of learning the more complicated skills. I try to learn as much as I can with the divers I dive with and or would like to dive with. I think PADI is a good agency to go with if you want the basic dive skills and necessary safety skills to a certain level. And I'm sure you could continue to become a divemaster or a Instructor if that's what you want to do.
Me, I want to be good at diving with lots of buddies and just have fun and keep learning as I go. Maybe some day I will do a GUE fundies class. Or maybe Learn and use a Rebreather. Ooooo! and a scooter class! I have to keep the finances in check here. Just go dive and keep asking questions like this and you'll do just fine!
Just be carfull of which Smilies you use.