Northwest Dive Club

I hate silt. I try very diligently to not stir up anything, regardless of when and where I'm diving. Silting has become my biggest peeve related to diving. It's the one thing an individual can do in minutes to ruin a site for anyone else who visits it that day.

Is there some polite way to address this with people? I'm not talking about new divers (for whom some silting is understandable). I'm talking about people with dozens or even hundreds of dives who should know and act better. How do you address this topic in a positive way? Or can you? Do you just live with it like you live with some other forms of bad public behavior? It just seems like such an avoidable problem. I just don't know how you request change without being a jerk. Do we need a Woodsy Owl type character and a marketing campaign? "Give a hoot, don't silt, you clod?" OK, that doesn't quite have the ring to it...

-Ben

Do we need a Woodsy Owl type character and a marketing campaign?

I vote for Silty the Shark, who can sneak up to bite your ass if you muck up vis.

Um. But I'm a silter still - I DO frog kick, but buoyancy...???

Unintentionally, I'm this guy in the water

I'm very curious about this too. When I silt accidently I always acknowledge it right when we surface as it just so happens I did it to Pez the other night when he was all in picture taking mode and I felt like a n00b.
My accidental silting is minimal at best these days, but I do see some experienced divers doing it plenty almost as though they didnt know that it is a hinderence in terms of viz? I guess if you are diving with the same person a lot the relationship will allow somethign like that to be said, once you figure out the context at which it will not be taken defensively. However someone you rarely dive with; how do you attack that. I mean I wouldnt want to cause a resentment, or have someone think that I am an ass, so I would most likely just try to avoid diving with them.
Then you have the other side, just don't dive with them and seem like a snob? Well if people were that way with me when I started I wouldnt have learned anything and just been solo diving in my bathtub....

<scratches head>

I havent had the challenge yet, but I would most likely ask them "I saw you kicking up some silt down there, were you having some issues with your BC, or trim?"

Frog kick over to them and steal their split fins and smack them on the head with them. (I'm kidding, back off all you split fin defenders, I know it's not about the fins.)

Most people who are silting stuff out seem to just not know how keep from doing it, or even that it's possible to dive without stirring up the silt. Nobody likes to swim in 0 viz. I doubt there's anything to be done about it other than trying to set a good example. As long as OW skills are taught kneeling on the bottom, and flutter kick is encouraged as the main mode of propulsion, there's gonna be silt. I just try and avoid areas where there's gonna be a lot of divers stirring things up.

Lynne and I have had the conversation that if people would just take the time to learn some basic skills, they would not only leave the dive site clear and nice for everyone else, but they'd be safer and would actually get MORE enjoyment out of their dives.

Take all the pictures you want instead of as many as you can before the silt cloud sneaks up on you, hover motionlessly to look at something instead of grabbing ahold of it to maintain position, and other easily learned (but often not) skills.

This is a great plug for Scott Christopher's class listed HERE!!

I'm with you Ben. I think it is flat rude,, selfish, and that it is sheer laziness not to take the time to learn. New divers, fine - we've all been there. After 50 dives you lose that "pass" and after 100 dives there is no excuse. No-silting fin techniques CAN be done in split fins, right Tom & Valerie?!

Sure, even the most non-silting divers have a rogue fin kick here and there, but it doesn't silt the place out... it's more of a quick localized "poof" followed by "ah crap, I stirred up the bottom" thought. Other divers, often with as many or even more dives, blow out the dive site without regard to anyone but themselves.

In the outdoors people understand the "leave the place better than you found it." We've also heard "take only pictures and leave only bubbles." This includes blowing out the place behind you.

PLEASE take Scott's class or one of the other Essentials, DIRF, or Intro classes. This isn't a DIR/UTD/DWW/ETC thing, this is a respect the site, respect the wildlife (who don't want to breathe your mess), and respect your community thing.

:angry:

On the flip side of this I want to say don't ever be afraid to tell me I am doing something I shouldn't. Recently one of you scolded me underwater about a specific behavior and I was literally overjoyed that you took the time to give me the feedback.

And the silting hasn't been a problem with anyone I dive with regularly. It's usually been other groups who hit the site ahead of us or who overlapped a dive with us.

PS - I think our mascot should be a frog for obvious reasons (Rana cancrivora swims in salt water, so it's all good)

BlackToe wrote: I've heard a couple people mention this in the past few weeks, and I feel like I'm missing something. What's the deal about frog-kicking and split fins? I've had Twin Jets for a couple years, and I frog kick almost exclusively. I can pivot on a dime and even swim backwards (a little). If anything, I get scolded for moving too fast (and in the next breath they tell me it looks like I hardly move during a dive).

Trust me, I'm not offended or anything, but I seriously want to know if there are some other fins out there I should try. Especially if they'd make me look sexier under water. =)

if we get into a split vs paddle fin discussion again, let's please start a new thread.

spatman wrote:

BlackToe wrote: I've heard a couple people mention this in the past few weeks, and I feel like I'm missing something. What's the deal about frog-kicking and split fins? I've had Twin Jets for a couple years, and I frog kick almost exclusively. I can pivot on a dime and even swim backwards (a little). If anything, I get scolded for moving too fast (and in the next breath they tell me it looks like I hardly move during a dive).

Trust me, I'm not offended or anything, but I seriously want to know if there are some other fins out there I should try. Especially if they'd make me look sexier under water. =)

if we get into a split vs paddle fin discussion again, let's please start a new thread.

This is a good point. The "split fins cause silt" argument isn't 100% true. The answer is divers who don't care cause silt... and that's what this thread is about.

If only the frog-tickets could be enforced. :angry:

BlackToe wrote:

Nwbrewer wrote:Frog kick over to them and steal their split fins and smack them on the head with them. (I'm kidding, back off all you split fin defenders, I know it's not about the fins.)

I've heard a couple people mention this in the past few weeks, and I feel like I'm missing something. What's the deal about frog-kicking and split fins? I've had Twin Jets for a couple years, and I frog kick almost exclusively. I can pivot on a dime and even swim backwards (a little). If anything, I get scolded for moving too fast (and in the next breath they tell me it looks like I hardly move during a dive).

Trust me, I'm not offended or anything, but I seriously want to know if there are some other fins out there I should try. Especially if they'd make me look sexier under water. =)

It's not the fins. I watched Mattlycure do a very nice frogkick in splits. I've heard people say you can't frog kick in splitfins, I've read it many times on many boards. It's one of those scuba urban myths as near as I can tell.

In my experience, (just what I've seen) people wearing splits tend to flutter kick. It's a very easy motion in splits, it's what they were designed for, so that's what people tend to do. And flutter kicking, no matter what fin you're using, is gonna stir up silt, by nature of the kicking motion.

Rather than getting all pevved about silt maybe you should just avoid the silty sites on sunny summer weekends when the non-diehards are all out recreating. Puget Sound is a great big muddy fjord so silt is just part of the package at certain sites.

I talk about how dives go (or not) with my buddies, which rarely includes kicks nowadays but certainly could if there was a major issue. I generally don't accost people in the parking lot to discuss their kicks/fins etc.

Jenbowes wrote:I vote for Silty the Shark, who can sneak up to bite your ass if you muck up vis.

Just spewed on the keyboard. I want a T-Shirt! I think Silty would be the perfect mascot!

I do my best to not silt up my evironment - how successful I am is ultimately left up to my dive buddies to decide.

However I've got too many dives in the past creating crap storms to get all high and mighty about it myself. I've had many a shot ruined by an errant fin kick or body thump - problem is some of those have been my own. Getting a clear pic is a great motivator for good buoyancy control and non-silting kicks.

I guess if you've got enough dives with someone or feel confident in your relationship try and talk to them without being a jerk about it. And ultimately if it bothers you enough you will limit your dive buddies. I am not ready to do that for the most part, although I might be selective if I was doing a particularly amazing dive and paying hard earned coin for it.

Nwbrewer wrote: And flutter kicking, no matter what fin you're using, is gonna stir up silt, by nature of the kicking motion.

...and so do divers who dive upright or semi-upright in the water, kneel/lay on the bottom, etc.

The way not to silt out the place is simple... don't touch things (this includes laying/kneeling/whatever on the bottom), and direct the force/water-movement of your fin kicks UP and BEHIND YOU. It's not hard - if you don't direct the "propwash" from your fins toward the silt, it won't stir it up.

Yes, it's that simple.

Sometimes it's better to "show" someone rather than tell them. Dive with them in a team of three. On the way out, you both follow the leader who is flutter kicking. On the way in follow the leader who is frog kicking. Guaranteed, they'll see the light.

When you debrief, mention all the "critters" you saw on the way out. They'll probably frown and say, I didn't see anything through the silt.

OK, I'm asking because I want to know. I'm new with the camera, and I do not frog kick, because I stink at it. Usually I just stay far enough off the bottom that I don't have to worry about kicking stuff up.

Here is the problem I want to address though: I want to get close to a subject to take a picture, but it is on a flat bottom. I really would like my picture to be from the side. I can place my camera down next to the critter, but then I cannot see the viewfinder. I have limited flash capability, so I need to be fairly close to the critter.

I want to lay on the bottom. Tell me the alternative, and how to do it...

Mike

I personally like the idea of filming the culprits... It is not pointing any fingers & most people love to watch themselves.... I would love it if someone would film me when I don't know my finning is being scrutinized!!! That is the best proof I think...

smike wrote:I want to lay on the bottom. Tell me the alternative, and how to do it...

practice your buoyancy and you'll be able to hover a couple inches from the bottom, instead of laying on it.

Thanks - I'll practice that. So when I am ready to leave that spot, I'll inhale, and my upper body will be the first to leave the bottom - is there a trick to getting my long legs up too? Seems I will want to approach the spot with legs up (frog kick position)?

Jenbowes wrote:

Do we need a Woodsy Owl type character and a marketing campaign?

I vote for Silty the Shark, who can sneak up to bite your ass if you muck up vis.

Um. But I'm a silter still - I DO frog kick, but buoyancy...???

Unintentionally, I'm this guy in the water

Silty the Seal would work better ... anybody who's dived with the damn things will know why ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Grateful Diver wrote: Silty the Seal would work better ... anybody who's dived with the damn things will know why ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

So a T-shirt like "Don't be Silty the Seal! Kick responsibly!"

Hmmm. Too cute?

How about a tongue twister?

Silty the Seal should be shot!

Too violent?

I'm just spit-balling here. I'm also trying to come up with a good Frog alliteration, but none of them are applicable or appropriate.

BTW, when I was a little kid, and we'd visit family in San Diego, my mom used to tell me to "watch out for the undertow". I thought she was saying "under toad", a giant amphibian that would drag me out to sea and kill me. I had nightmares.

Maybe the trouble is too many divers in one location!! Try a different location if it bothers you

free2scuba2 wrote:Maybe the trouble is too many divers in one location!! Try a different location if it bothers you

we've had many divers and no silt in one small area many times. it can be done.

I WANT THAT SHIRT!!!!!!

I WANT THAT SHIRT!!!!!!

Make that two! Awesome!

With an order for 25 shirts or more, we can print them fairly cheaply. :angry:

I like the concept a lot - I've even got a design improvement suggestion.