What to do about the silt

[Fishstiq]

In fact, an article for NWDN about propulsion techniques and silting might be something Rick wouldn't at all mind printing, and since I can't dive these days, I could take on writing one. Anybody got some good photographs of good trim, frog kicking and modified flutter?

I like the idea.

I wonder if it would fly or if dive politics would kill it? Good luck Lynne - go for it!

I like this idea. Maybe some certain 'above the fold famous' divers could be used as models for some good anti-silting kick pictures. Extend their 15 minutes to 20?

I'd have to check my schedule..... Tell you what, have your people contact my people and we'll make it happen.

Now you can never say I forgot where I came from. See? I still make time for the "little people".

[Pez7378]

I can probably have my secretary clear my schedule but I'll have to talk to my agent. I figured after two magazines and a newpaper (Front page above the fold) I'd be doing movies by now, but I could make time for some more photo opportunities if it's in my contract...............


Over the top? I'm not really sure if we're handling this very well. Sometime I even make myself sick!

[selkie]

When this thread started I soon quit reading it because it seemed like another non constructive rambling rant. Coming back to the tread today, I am impressed with how the thread has turned toward positive solutions with everyone contributing including people I inadvertently concluded to be raters. Post dive briefings are a great habit and a good place to start. As a DM candidate I have been thinking a lot about training, pre dive and post dive briefings. Threads like this are great food for thought. I think the community outreach through the local diving rag (NWDN) in conjunction with a big buddy demonstration dive is a great positive start. No wonder I have become addicted to reading this board.

[BASSMAN]

Yeah! It's great to finally see a discussion about this and not letting it become the whole Split fin vs. Paddle fin argument!

I also try to emulate other divers who have good Frog kick or what I like to call Hellicopter kicks.
I think I do okay, as for not silting out the whole dive site. But I still need to learn how to back kick and turn with out the use of my hands and arms.

Getting away from the whole,"I'm a better diver than you, because I can Frog kick!"
I have not seen alot of that, but it's there.

Trying to organize here and at the dive sites, volunteer lessons on non silting tecniques would be great for all NW divers in our specifically, allready limmited vis waters. Once again my work comnputer will not let me see the T-shirt Image, but it sounds like a great Idea! I'll take one now and continue to work on my finning tecniques, as this developes.
Just FYI, I am a graveshift,10 hour a day, week-end worker who can not afford time or money to take the GUE / Tech Intro / $199.00 classes to teach me the best finning Tecniques. But that training would definately be one of my next levels of training for becoming a better all around diver.

Thanks for starting a great thread!

[LCF]

Bassman, once my face has healed and I'm back in business, I would be more than happy to meet up with you on a Thursday somewhere to do a finning clinic. I'm not a poster child for proper technique, but I don't leave much of a silt trail behind me. I also have a swimming pool in my back yard, where the viz is usually significantly better than in either the lake or the Sound :-)

[babs13]

In fact, an article for NWDN about propulsion techniques and silting might be something Rick wouldn't at all mind printing, and since I can't dive these days, I could take on writing one. Anybody got some good photographs of good trim, frog kicking and modified flutter?

Hey...check out these links. It supplemented watching good PNW divers fin while diving since they helped me figure out the frog and back kick.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zt1jJk9l ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LgEkBn35 ... re=related

[airsix]

Wow. I had no idea this thread would take hold and generate so much activity. Thanks everybody. You all rock.

I've had time to think about the topic some more, and sort my thoughts out. Thank you for working to take the discussion in a positive direction. For the past day that's what I've been thinking about - how to take a positive approach to this topic.

Here are my ideas/plans:

1. First of all you have to know where I'm coming from. The comments of "don't dive with those people" or "dive at another site" aren't as easy for me as they may be for you. Because I live so far away, each dive is valuable. My worst silt-out happened on a charter dive. I drove 600 miles round trip to do that dive and paid good money to be on the boat. To top it off it was a 40ft visibility day. Ruined in seconds. Under those circumstances I couldn't just "go somewhere else" or "try again tomorrow".

2. Lynne, Thank you for your ideas. I also had the idea to write an article for NWDN. I'll defer to you on that.

3. I'd like to make a video. Kind of a cross between a training video and a PSA. Something narrated that shows the various examples of both right and wrong technique. I'd want to produce it for the general recreational diving public. No condescending attitude, no mention of three-letter acronyms, just good education. If I had access to an underwater video cam I'd like to produce this and just spread it around grass-roots style through the web. Not a for-profit thing at all. Just a good instructional video for youtube/vimeo.

4. I made the T-shirt graphic in a moment of frustration. I don't know that it would have any constructive purpose at all. Probably the opposite.

[Sounder]

I'm not a poster child for proper technique...

Yes you are.

[airsix]

but I don't leave much of a silt trail behind me.

And by "not much" she would mean "none".

-Ben

[CaptnJack]

1. First of all you have to know where I'm coming from. The comments of "don't dive with those people" or "dive at another site" aren't as easy for me as they may be for you. Because I live so far away, each dive is valuable. My worst silt-out happened on a charter dive. I drove 600 miles round trip to do that dive and paid good money to be on the boat. To top it off it was a 40ft visibility day. Ruined in seconds. Under those circumstances I couldn't just "go somewhere else" or "try again tomorrow".

What boat was this? who chartered it? what site were you on?

If you didn't arrange for the boat yourself and pick the divers aboard you get whatever the dice roll. Alot of divers here probably think I'm snobby. But this is exactly why I am pretty selective about the who/what/when/where's of my diving. I don't like to waste time and money being frustrated or worse scared. I will dive with a 5 dive diver and have a great time, but I pick the sites/days/circumstances carefully to create a fun time for everyone. I don't just show up (on a boat or at a shore site) and trust that everything will work out.

[LCF]

But, Richard, you live less than a half hour from a number of good dive sites and boat launches. For somebody who has to come from the Tricities to do salt water diving, the logistics are a great deal more difficult. I know Ben works hard to try to arrange buddies for his trips, but arranging a private boat is probably just not in the cards for him. And yes, I think we're all a bit spoiled and probably a bit snobby, when we live here and can dive all the time.

The secret to fixing the problem is to educate people that there IS a problem, and then help show them there is an answer, too. You're not going to change the whole scuba world, but it's amazing how many people make use of information if they find it.

[mz53480]

...I'd like to make a video. Kind of a cross between a training video and a PSA. Something narrated that shows the various examples of both right and wrong technique. I'd want to produce it for the general recreational diving public. No condescending attitude, no mention of three-letter acronyms, just good education. If I had access to an underwater video cam I'd like to produce this and just spread it around grass-roots style through the web. Not a for-profit thing at all. Just a good instructional video for youtube/vimeo.

Hey, I've got a camera and would be up to do some video for this. Lemme know when you'll be over this way, or what ideas you have and we can get some divers together to make it happen.


MZ

[Nwbrewer]

Wow. I had no idea this thread would take hold and generate so much activity. Thanks everybody. You all rock.

I've had time to think about the topic some more, and sort my thoughts out. Thank you for working to take the discussion in a positive direction. For the past day that's what I've been thinking about - how to take a positive approach to this topic.

Here are my ideas/plans:

1. First of all you have to know where I'm coming from. The comments of "don't dive with those people" or "dive at another site" aren't as easy for me as they may be for you. Because I live so far away, each dive is valuable. My worst silt-out happened on a charter dive. I drove 600 miles round trip to do that dive and paid good money to be on the boat. To top it off it was a 40ft visibility day. Ruined in seconds. Under those circumstances I couldn't just "go somewhere else" or "try again tomorrow".

2. Lynne, Thank you for your ideas. I also had the idea to write an article for NWDN. I'll defer to you on that.

3. I'd like to make a video. Kind of a cross between a training video and a PSA. Something narrated that shows the various examples of both right and wrong technique. I'd want to produce it for the general recreational diving public. No condescending attitude, no mention of three-letter acronyms, just good education. If I had access to an underwater video cam I'd like to produce this and just spread it around grass-roots style through the web. Not a for-profit thing at all. Just a good instructional video for youtube/vimeo.

4. I made the T-shirt graphic in a moment of frustration. I don't know that it would have any constructive purpose at all. Probably the opposite.

Good idea. Lavindivl volunteers to be the example of what not to do in your video.

[Paulicarp]

The secret to fixing the problem is to educate people that there IS a problem, and then help show them there is an answer, too. You're not going to change the whole scuba world, but it's amazing how many people make use of information if they find it.

Is there a curriculum for an open water student that teaches buoyancy, trim and propulsion as essential skills? :dontknow:Shouldn't they all teach this?

[Sounder]

The secret to fixing the problem is to educate people that there IS a problem, and then help show them there is an answer, too. You're not going to change the whole scuba world, but it's amazing how many people make use of information if they find it.

Is there a curriculum for an open water student that teaches buoyancy, trim and propulsion as essential skills? :dontknow:Shouldn't they all teach this?

Yes, and yes.

But..it's not required, and many instructors can't do it themselves (so they obviously can't teach it), but there are some select instructors who teach it well in their basic scuba classes. Most of these select instructors require students to hover while performing skills, NOT kneel on the bottom.

[Nwbrewer]

The secret to fixing the problem is to educate people that there IS a problem, and then help show them there is an answer, too. You're not going to change the whole scuba world, but it's amazing how many people make use of information if they find it.

Is there a curriculum for an open water student that teaches buoyancy, trim and propulsion as essential skills? :dontknow:Shouldn't they all teach this?

I believe your OW class will cover this, don't worry. Otherwise, come diving with some of us, it's not hard to learn.

[airsix]

Thanks, MZ.
You too, Jake.

In the mean time here's a great little bit of video instruction from AG. Learn it. Love it. Live it.

[CaptnJack]

But, Richard, you live less than a half hour from a number of good dive sites and boat launches. For somebody who has to come from the Tricities to do salt water diving, the logistics are a great deal more difficult. I know Ben works hard to try to arrange buddies for his trips, but arranging a private boat is probably just not in the cards for him. And yes, I think we're all a bit spoiled and probably a bit snobby, when we live here and can dive all the time.

The secret to fixing the problem is to educate people that there IS a problem, and then help show them there is an answer, too. You're not going to change the whole scuba world, but it's amazing how many people make use of information if they find it.

Oh I definitely agree on education, but think you should start at a much higher level. The el cheapo $99 OW class instructors are cranking out silt monsters far faster than you can "fix" them.

But I also think that you need to temper your objectives back to reality. If you want a silt free site then hire the Dash or the Aluminator for yourself and 5 known friends. Don't jump on a 8-20 diver recreational boat and expect to have a pristine site. You are just setting yourself up for frustration.

[airsix]

Richard, I think the idea is that there are a lot of people who need help. People like Lynne are willing to provide it to anyone willing to receive it. Thank goodness for attitudes like that otherwise I'd still be a total wreck. I watched her mentor someone the other day so effectively that the results were worthy of a formal celebration. It was a couple of hours to Lynne, but quite possibly a lifetime of more enjoyable diving to the other individual. Isn't that sort of thing worth the effort? On that note I have to tell you a story. We met last year in the BHUT parkinglot. We only spoke for a few minutes but you gave me advice that has made my diving more enjoyable. It was only a few minutes to you, but I get the benefits every dive I do. My point is keep taking the time to help people even if you are only reaching 1 in a million. The 1 will be grateful.

-Ben

[dwashbur]

OK, I'm asking because I want to know. I'm new with the camera, and I do not frog kick, because I stink at it. Usually I just stay far enough off the bottom that I don't have to worry about kicking stuff up.

Here is the problem I want to address though: I want to get close to a subject to take a picture, but it is on a flat bottom. I really would like my picture to be from the side. I can place my camera down next to the critter, but then I cannot see the viewfinder. I have limited flash capability, so I need to be fairly close to the critter.

I want to lay on the bottom. Tell me the alternative, and how to do it...

Mike

A trick I learned vicariously (it's a long story) is, go ahead and drop to the bottom but touch down with one finger. I often do that to steady myself so I can take a picture or 5000 without stirring things up. This is especially handy at places like Redondo or Cove 2 where there are more than a few rocks to touch down on with that finger, which reduces the silt factor even more. There are other places, like Les Davis between the beach and the reef, where silt is going to be a way of life because there's just so much of it. But I've found that even there the amount of gunk I stir up is minimized this way. Just a thought.

[BASSMAN]

Bassman, once my face has healed and I'm back in business, I would be more than happy to meet up with you on a Thursday somewhere to do a finning clinic. I'm not a poster child for proper technique.

Great! I'll take you up on that offer! Just let me know what Thursday you will be available!

How many divers do you think you could comfortably train in your pool? Or would it be better for a one on one thing?

A trick I learned vicariously (it's a long story) is, go ahead and drop to the bottom but touch down with one finger. .

I used to do the one finger thing and sometimes I still do. But one time, Tom Nic and I were doing a practice dusk / night dive in a lake, near my house.
We swam out on the surface and began our decent in to what was about 40 feet of water. As the bottom came in view, I put my hand down and it dissapeared into a suspended silt and there was no resistance and then Tom Nic put his Light Cannon out and it also went completely black. We looked at each other and thumbed the dive, surfaced and said to each other, "What was that! " we finnished the dive in shallow water. That was when we learned all about Suspended Silt , on a lake dive. That was the one and only Lake dive I've done. I just dont have the desire to deal with that kind of silt. Maybe after I get some training from Lynne, I will use the skills in a lake, just for Practice. (Thursday day or night, lake dive, comming soon!)
Now, I like to do the "Tom Cruise descent"( In the Mission Impossible movie) keep pulsing air into my suit, flair out and stop! Just a foot from the bottom, no kicking at all and then add a little more air to my suit or BC until I'm at the propper level. Kind of fun, you should try it!

[LCF]

For a skills kind of thing, we could have two or three people working in the pool. It's a small pool, but you don't need a lot of room to practice finning. The advantage is being able to use video to get immediate feedback on what you are doing.

[BASSMAN]

For a skills kind of thing, we could have two or three people working in the pool. It's a small pool, but you don't need a lot of room to practice finning. The advantage is being able to use video to get immediate feedback on what you are doing.

Sending PM.

[CaptnJack]

Ben, whatever I said, your welcome.


Oh I am all over helping people who wanna learn.
Spreading the gospel to the unwashed masses, not so much...

[Norris]

Thanks, MZ.
You too, Jake.

In the mean time here's a great little bit of video instruction from AG. Learn it. Love it. Live it.

Awesome videos Airsix! I enjoyed watching them and it confirmed that I actually AM getting that frog kick down!!! These are handy to have around for the brand new diver (in many ways that is still me).