diving accident

jeff98208 · Post by **jeff98208** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 8:37 pm

as h20doctor and i started getting ready for our night dive at mukilteo t dock , a group of other divers were just starting theres. their dive plan was to dive the boat at 120fsw. we stayed about 50 or 60fsw. and seen 6 octos and 8 rat fish. amongest our asscent, we seen 2 ambulances and 1 fire truck. a diver had a problem he was taken from the dive site to a hospital. we beleive he did not have enough expeirnce for making that kind of night dive. and as my brother says before we dive, make a plan and stick to it, and don't go beyond your comfort zone if your not ready for it yet. later!

good day!
jeff

DiverDown · Post by **DiverDown** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 9:55 pm

I was just showing up there when the aid crew arrived. Apparently the diver said that he was pretty "narced" at around 80fsw and panicked. So he aborted the dive and ascended back up the rope line. My observation was that he was coherent and no physical signs of barotrauma. He had mentioned that he was concerned with his accent rate. I am sure that he was fine but I guess that it is always better to let the professionals determine that.

The one thing that is disturbing to me is that. There were some tanks on the shore that said nitrox. The paramedic asked the diver how long has he been diving "nitrous"?? I guess that explains why he was narced..

jeff98208 · Post by **jeff98208** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 3:16 am

true. the young man was in the aid unit upon our asscent so we only caught 1/2 of the story and know we know the rest of the story. the emt should have read the nitrox label closer though, why would anyone want to breath nitrous though? the good thing is, he'll be ok after this. and yes it is true, its always a good idea to let the professionals detirmine that. but i'd much rather breathe helium than nitrous any day. :occasion5:
$\:D/$

Grateful Diver · Post by **Grateful Diver** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 7:12 am

DiverDown wrote:I was just showing up there when the aid crew arrived. Apparently the diver said that he was pretty "narced" at around 80fsw and panicked. So he aborted the dive and ascended back up the rope line. My observation was that he was coherent and no physical signs of barotrauma. He had mentioned that he was concerned with his accent rate. I am sure that he was fine but I guess that it is always better to let the professionals determine that.

The one thing that is disturbing to me is that. There were some tanks on the shore that said nitrox. The paramedic asked the diver how long has he been diving "nitrous"?? I guess that explains why he was narced..

Glad he's OK ... hope he learns something from the experience.

Too many people take dives to 120 fsw too lightly. Some pay a much higher price than this diver did.

Moral of the story ... before you head off on a deep dive, especially at night, make sure you've got the proper training, equipment, and experience to be able to handle yourself safely if things don't go just exactly right.

Panicking due to narcosis is a sign that perhaps this person simply isn't suited to be doing deep dives ... ever. Not everyone is ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Tangfish · Post by **Tangfish** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 8:01 am

This is just my opinion, and doesn't particularly relate to this accident, but I see more and more people diving nitrox who don't have a particular need to do so. Sure, the chance of an 02 toxicity related accident is low, but the consequences are so much worse than getting bent that I wonder why people risk it at all. Until someone has enough dives that they're completely comfortable with their buoyancy and surroundings, equipment and emergency procedures, I don't think they need to dive nitrox - especially when doing 'average' dive profiles that don't require any additional offgassing. I started using nitrox in the tropics, where I was doing many consecutive days of 3 or 4 dives per day. We alternated nitrox and air and only dove the nitrox on platform reefs where there was a bottom to keep you from diving too deep. I know that people say they know their limits and will not exceed their max depth, but what happens if your buddy has something unfortunate happen and you need to go deeper to help him/her, do you really want to make that decision based on the almost imperceptible advantage of diving nitrox w/o needing to (no repetitive dives, no deco diving w/ air)?

lamont · Post by **lamont** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 8:12 am

Grateful Diver wrote: Panicking due to narcosis is a sign that perhaps this person simply isn't suited to be doing deep dives ... ever. Not everyone is ...

don't know if i totally agree with that...

i remember my first dives to the I-beams and 90-100 fsw, and all the cold, the narc, the narcosis (that i couldn't recognize yet), the CO2 buildup and the dark/paranoid narcosis hits -- that weird feeling that *something* was going wrong and all the free floating anxiety, without having any idea what was going on. i benefitted from the fact that the dive plan in those days was typically a bounce for 5 mins down to the I-beams and then we turned around and scooted back up the rope and at ~70 fsw the narcosis cleared up and i suddenly felt a lot of relief. it took me a long time to get comfortable down at olive's den as well, i used to get all spooky down there long after i got comfortable at the i-beams, even though the depth isn't that much different... if i had been going down to 120 early in my dive career and staying for longer i might have lost it too... i didn't have the tools to understand narcosis and CO2 hits (these days if i notice that i'm thinking loopy thoughts at depth i just flush my lungs of CO2 and it clears up...)

now the problem, though, is that the diver associates deep dives with panic and a traumatic experience...

lamont · Post by **lamont** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 8:18 am

Calvin Tang wrote:I know that people say they know their limits and will not exceed their max depth, but what happens if your buddy has something unfortunate happen and you need to go deeper to help him/her, do you really want to make that decision based on the almost imperceptible advantage of diving nitrox w/o needing to (no repetitive dives, no deco diving w/ air)?

the problem there is that you shouldn't be diving on walls with bad buoyancy control...

and nitrox makes me feel better on recreational dives. it would be even better for beginning divers at sites with hard bottoms because there's less gas loading and less nitrogen so less chance of getting hurt from a newbie diver's rapid ascents (in fact, it probably helped out the diver in question -- case in point).

jeff98208 · Post by **jeff98208** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 8:28 am

i hear that calvin. although i do hold a nitrox cert, i still use air. i have not used nitrox since i got the cert for it back in december of last year. thus far i have had no need to venture beyond my comfort zone. my wife says if i don't come home in 1 peice, then i'm a dead man when i get home. so i tend to get home walking on my and breathing on my own. and your right calvin, the consequences could have been far worse. we hope he has learned from this incent.

CaptnJack · Post by **CaptnJack** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 8:55 am

I don't dive air at all. The advantages of nitrox are used on most every one of my dives, I'd be heading shallower quite a few minutes earlier on most of my dives without it.

And my gas choices are standardized across my team/buddys. I also don't dive 32% that close to the edge where I couldn't help a buddy at a slightly deeper depth. My planned depth limit for 32% is 100ft, maybe 105 (like the logs at Cove 2/3) if there's a hard bottom.

I am willing to descend to 120 on 32% if there's an emergency. But with the people I dive with, at the sites we visit, that is a highly unlikely combination.

If your skills are not good enough for 32% at 100 ft you shouldn't be there on air either. "Recreational limits" are way too deep IMO.

Richard

dsteding · Post by **dsteding** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 9:26 am

lamont wrote: i remember my first dives to the I-beams and 90-100 fsw, and all the cold, the narc, the narcosis (that i couldn't recognize yet), the CO2 buildup and the dark/paranoid narcosis hits -- that weird feeling that *something* was going wrong and all the free floating anxiety, without having any idea what was going on . . . (these days if i notice that i'm thinking loopy thoughts at depth i just flush my lungs of CO2 and it clears up...)

Interesting point re CO2 Lamont. I was very clearly narc'd on my first few dives to the I-beams, not to the point of absolute paranoia, but to the edge of my comfort level (I would not have wanted to go any deeper than 95-100 feet). As I've gotten more dives in, I've noticed that I am much less narc'd down there, my last dive to the i-beams was my longest bottom time there, and the clearest my head has been. I'm wondering how much of this is due to less CO2 build-up because I've (a) gotten more comfortable/even/consistent with my breathing and (b) I've been working out a fair amount lately, so I'm arguably in better cardio shape then I was when doing the same dive back in August.

Richard and Bob, from the newbie perspective, I'd tend to agree that people end up too deep too fast. Another example of a lack of understanding of the consequences if something goes wrong.

CaptnJack · Post by **CaptnJack** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 10:13 am

Well you're still narced. Your perception of it definately changes over time and from day to day (does for me esp. day vs. night). But your ability to respond to problems hasn't substantively improved, except maybe slightly through increased familiarity with the site, gear and buddies.

Personally, I am far more willing to change a plan on the fly at 100ft diving 25/25 or 30/30 vs 32% where I try to avoid making major plan changes below 60-70ft

dsteding · Post by **dsteding** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 10:25 am

CaptnJack wrote:Well you're still narced. Your perception of it definately changes over time and from day to day (does for me esp. day vs. night). But your ability to respond to problems hasn't substantively improved, except maybe slightly through increased familiarity with the site, gear and buddies.

Personally, I am far more willing to change a plan on the fly at 100ft diving 25/25 or 30/30 vs 32% where I try to avoid making major plan changes below 60-70ft

Oh, for sure I am still narced, I'm just wondering if it is to less of a degree because of CO2 or if it is because my perception has changed. As we may have discussed, I'm personally very hesitant to go below ~100 feet on 32%. I'll save those dives for when I have the proper training to use helium.

lamont · Post by **lamont** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 10:34 am

dsteding wrote: Interesting point re CO2 Lamont. I was very clearly narc'd on my first few dives to the I-beams, not to the point of absolute paranoia, but to the edge of my comfort level (I would not have wanted to go any deeper than 95-100 feet). As I've gotten more dives in, I've noticed that I am much less narc'd down there, my last dive to the i-beams was my longest bottom time there, and the clearest my head has been. I'm wondering how much of this is due to less CO2 build-up because I've (a) gotten more comfortable/even/consistent with my breathing and (b) I've been working out a fair amount lately, so I'm arguably in better cardio shape then I was when doing the same dive back in August.

yup. some of that is probably overall comfort and getting used to it, but some of it is probably related to CO2 buildup.

CaptnJack · Post by **CaptnJack** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 10:44 am

Were you really working that hard? Or that anxious?

CO2 can go from managable to hell spawn danged fast, if you are working hard or nervous and breathing hard - slow down and fix the situation. This is supposed to be fun afterall.

dsteding · Post by **dsteding** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 10:58 am

CaptnJack wrote:Were you really working that hard? Or that anxious?

CO2 can go from managable to hell spawn danged fast, if you are working hard or nervous and breathing hard - slow down and fix the situation. This is supposed to be fun afterall.

Not working that hard, but anxious yes, at least on my first two dives to the i-beams. At no time was I panicked or filled with anxiety, but the level was increased.

This is mostly in reference to my first two dives to the i-beams. The first one was with Bob when we saw the six gill, the second one was my AOW "deep" dive. On both of those dives I wasn't anxious to the point of wanting to thumb the dive (if I got to that point, I would have thumbed the dive) but the anxiety level does increase for me when I am doing something new underwater. I was also probably more aware of the dangers of diving deeper than your average newbie diver (rather than blissfully ignorant) so I'd say I was concentrating on keeping my awareness of myself, my air, and my buddy at a high level.

These are just musings on my part, but it makes me think about the level to which we are affected by such things (especially at depth) and reinforces the idea of the importance of paying attention to yourself. I'm also just naturally intrigued about the sub-acute affects of CO2 on narcosis, obviously if you get buildup to a certain level you'll experience acute symptoms (blacking out) but the interplay between CO2 and narcosis is an interesting topic from a pin-headed standpoint.

Your advice about slowing down and fixing the situation is a good one, I say that to myself whenever I'm task loaded or confronted with an issue underwater.

Sounder · Post by **Sounder** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 11:03 am

I am enjoying this exchange and learning a lot. Thank you.

Perhaps I missed it, but why was the diver taken from the scene to the hospital while experiencing no apparent problems? What it precautionary? Was the diver outwardly upset or panicked once he was back on dry land? Or, do we not know?

Also, I appreciate the way this is being talked about - so many times on boards people in this sport seem to "kick their wounded and curse the dead." This is very constructive & helpful, and I appreciate it.

Post by **H20doctor** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 11:06 am

Well nitrox or not... you dont do a night dive with your friends at 120 feet. Especially if the are newbie and still wet behind there ears... I knew, and I told jeff before we went down to our dive , That those 3 kids were going to have an accident , and that one of them was going to be going home in a ambulence...
The point here is Know who your diving with, Know your dive plan, and IF you are doing a Deep dive below 100 feet at night... Have a Pony bottle Or have a Person who is a Master dive Or logged lots of dive s at the site... I never do dives like these kids last night cause I know the risks and dangers of being Narked... and having a diver freek out on me at night, and doing what these foolish kids did... IF I would have known their dive plan to do the boat last night I would have stopped them cold on the shore and told them NO, No way boys stay above 60.
Jeff and I have seen these kids before at mukilteo, and they were not expierenced divers. Most of them have only dived in warm tropical water. In fact all of them had returned from Hawaii, and cozumel just this last summer..

CaptnJack · Post by **CaptnJack** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 11:09 am

Sounder wrote: Perhaps I missed it, but why was the diver taken from the scene to the hospital while experiencing no apparent problems? What it precautionary? Was the diver outwardly upset or panicked once he was back on dry land? Or, do we not know?

Also, I appreciate the way this is being talked about - so many times on boards people in this sport seem to "kick their wounded and curse the dead." This is very constructive & helpful, and I appreciate it.

Usually if you are acute the fire dept will transport you. If you have no acute immediately life threatening injury they will arrange for a commercial ambulance.

If you want to go to the hospital they will always arrange it and never say "you don't need to". That would be beyond their scope/role.

Zen Diver · Post by **Zen Diver** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 12:05 pm

CaptnJack wrote:
Usually if you are acute the fire dept will transport you. If you have no acute immediately life threatening injury they will arrange for a commercial ambulance.

Actually, it depends on the municipality. In January Auburn FD started charging $$ to transport patients and now transports almost exclusively all of their calls via a commercial ambulance. If it's truly acute, medics (paramedics, Medic One in King County), not the fire department, will transport if they've been called on scene.

-Valerie
(ER Nurse)

CaptnJack · Post by **CaptnJack** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 12:15 pm

Zen Diver 2 wrote:
CaptnJack wrote:
Usually if you are acute the fire dept will transport you. If you have no acute immediately life threatening injury they will arrange for a commercial ambulance.
Actually, it depends on the municipality. In January Auburn FD started charging $$ to transport patients and now transports almost exclusively all of their calls via a commercial ambulance. If it's truly acute, medics (paramedics, Medic One in King County), not the fire department, will transport if they've been called on scene.

-Valerie
(ER Nurse)

Here in Seattle Medic 1 and FD are comingled, but yeah we're saying the same basic thing. Those on scene were not going to deny transport to someone who wanted to be checked out more thoroughly.

Edit: he might have been a minor as well and that may have been a factor.

CaptnJack · Post by **CaptnJack** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 12:19 pm

H20doctor wrote:Well nitrox or not... you dont do a night dive with your friends at 120 feet. Especially if the are newbie and still wet behind there ears... I knew, and I told jeff before we went down to our dive , That those 3 kids were going to have an accident , and that one of them was going to be going home in a ambulence...
The point here is Know who your diving with, Know your dive plan, and IF you are doing a Deep dive below 100 feet at night... Have a Pony bottle Or have a Person who is a Master dive Or logged lots of dive s at the site... I never do dives like these kids last night cause I know the risks and dangers of being Narked... and having a diver freek out on me at night, and doing what these foolish kids did... IF I would have known their dive plan to do the boat last night I would have stopped them cold on the shore and told them NO, No way boys stay above 60.
Jeff and I have seen these kids before at mukilteo, and they were not expierenced divers. Most of them have only dived in warm tropical water. In fact all of them had returned from Hawaii, and cozumel just this last summer..

How old were they, less than 18? Being foolish goes with being a kid. Even if they entirely lacked a plan and walked right into this incident (with eyes closed) let's keep this polite.

lamont · Post by **lamont** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 12:57 pm

lamont wrote: yup. some of that is probably overall comfort and getting used to it, but some of it is probably related to CO2 buildup.

Got distracted and didn't have time to finish my thoughts out on this one before I sent that reply...

I've gotten to the point where I can postively identify CO2 creeping up on me when it occurs. I had one time recently when I was just too relaxed and breathing too shallow and found myself getting loopy on a simple scooter dive to the monolith on 30/30... Increasing my respiration rate somewhat and emptying my lungs out fully on an exhale helped to clear up my mind in a minute or two (and probably prevented me from getting a nasty headache after the dive...).

Some of narcosis at depth is just getting used to it. If you start to feel your short term memory loss slipping you can identify that as an issue and work around it. If you start feeling a tickle of anxiety down there you can ignore it and it'll affect your dive a lot less. That comes with experience and comfort. But also there's the CO2 and the breathing aspect of it (which, of course, is also tied into comfort as well) and that will get better as well.

Not to say that you can't be experienced and still get totally loopy at depth, either. Particularly if I haven't been narc'd in awhile, going down to 90+ on nitrox will make my head spin pretty well.

So, yes, you probably have less CO2 and have less physiological effects which results in less symptoms of narcosis at depth -- but there's always going to be a background level of narcosis if you are diving to 90+ on nitrox/air which you can get used to, but which you can't really make go away...

As a new diver, if you have no idea that any of this stuff is going on it can quickly spiral out of control. Add in a poorly performing rental reg to the mix, and you get CO2 buildup, panic cycle, and a bolt to the surface...

The fact that the diver thought they were narc'd at 80 fsw probably indicates that they were nervous about the dive to begin with, that lead to increased respiration, which led to CO2 buildup, which led to a CO2 'hit' which caused more narcosis, anxiety and further increased respiration. With a lack of experience there was nothing to break the panic cycle or prevent the CO2 hit, and you got a rapid ascent and a near-miss...

EDIT: additionally, one of the other benefits of helium is that it has a reduced density and reduced viscosity, which leads to better breathing at depth and reduced CO2 buildup... so not only does helium itself produce less narcosis, but it also helps to avoid CO2 narcosis as well...

Grateful Diver · Post by **Grateful Diver** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 2:15 pm

lamont wrote:
Grateful Diver wrote: Panicking due to narcosis is a sign that perhaps this person simply isn't suited to be doing deep dives ... ever. Not everyone is ...
don't know if i totally agree with that...

i remember my first dives to the I-beams and 90-100 fsw, and all the cold, the narc, the narcosis (that i couldn't recognize yet), the CO2 buildup and the dark/paranoid narcosis hits -- that weird feeling that *something* was going wrong and all the free floating anxiety, without having any idea what was going on. i benefitted from the fact that the dive plan in those days was typically a bounce for 5 mins down to the I-beams and then we turned around and scooted back up the rope and at ~70 fsw the narcosis cleared up and i suddenly felt a lot of relief. it took me a long time to get comfortable down at olive's den as well, i used to get all spooky down there long after i got comfortable at the i-beams, even though the depth isn't that much different... if i had been going down to 120 early in my dive career and staying for longer i might have lost it too... i didn't have the tools to understand narcosis and CO2 hits (these days if i notice that i'm thinking loopy thoughts at depth i just flush my lungs of CO2 and it clears up...)

now the problem, though, is that the diver associates deep dives with panic and a traumatic experience...

But you didn't panic ... what you're describing is anxiety.

A certain amount of anxiety during your first deep dives is normal ... but although you feel a certain amount of stress, you are still thinking and maintaining control of your actions. Panic is a whole different animal, because it induces irrational behavior ... the diver acts out of instinct rather than reason ... and bolting to the surface from 120 feet can easily be fatal.

... Bob (Grateful DIver)

Grateful Diver · Post by **Grateful Diver** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 2:22 pm

dsteding wrote: As I've gotten more dives in, I've noticed that I am much less narc'd down there, my last dive to the i-beams was my longest bottom time there, and the clearest my head has been.

I'd be willing to bet that you are just as narced as you always were ... you've simply learned how to handle it better.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Post by **H20doctor** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 2:46 pm

these young divers we all around 19 to 20 years old. the one Kid was wearing a thin on piece Oneal dive siut made for warm water diving. They all had gotten certified in Hawaii, and travel to other place together as a group of friends.. I believe they come from very rich family's, because there gear was nice and not used much.
On the other Note of diving at night... I get anxiety really bad below 80 feet. And its hard to not get spooked for me at that depth. My mind starts to over think and worry about air, and how I am really really DEEP. I have logged over 150 + dives. I only get these symptoms at night diving. During the Day If I go Deep, I am perfectly Fine, I have been to 110 at mukilteo during the day with no problems.. So symptoms of night diving are different for everyone