Tacoma Equipment Dive on Saturday

[LCF]

You know, I just read this whole thread with increasing disbelief. I'm not going to comment on advice, or gas management, or buddies, or anything of the sort; I've learned that no one really welcomes that kind of information or criticism or whatever you want to call it.

But I'm going to ask a question out of pure curiosity: What kind of gear function check do you need to do at 100 feet? The only thing I can think of is camera housing integrity. Everything else, it seems like you could pretty much figure out if it's working by the time you're at 20 feet or so . . .

[whatevah]

Going back through the thread I find that I am left feeling curious about something. I want to know more about why some felt that an 80cf cylinder was not enough for a "safe" dive with a maximum depth of 100'. I know of three guidelines that people might use to make decisions on that part of the plan:

a) 1cf per foot of maximum depth
b) "Rock Bottom" calculations
c) Guesstimate based on personal experience

The plan does not comply with guideline (a). Guideline (c) is highly variable from diver to diver. And the plan could easily fit for (b). I've even seen minimum "acceptable" psi numbers in this thread - seems odd given the large variations in SAC. Are some of you using different guidelines? Would like to learn about them if you feel inclined to share.

[Tangfish]

Hi Bob, thanks for your input on this. To answer your examples.

So let's say some guy ... a moderately experienced OW diver ... purchases a Meg on Craigslist and decides he's perfectly capable of teaching himself how to use it. He heads off to Cove 2, does a solo dive on his new rebreather, and comes here to talk about what a great dive he had.

Do you suggest to him that what he's doing is dangerous? Maybe point out a few things that he doesn't understand? Would you even suggest to him that taking the class is way worth the money?

Wouldn't all of those things be offering unsolicited advice? Is it arrogant and rude to point out to someone that what they don't know can get them injured or dead before they even realize what's happening?

I respect that this is your board, and you can make any rules you want. I understand that if I want to post here, I need to respect those rules ... and I honestly try to.

But I don't agree with this one at all ... it's overly broad, and assumes the worst about people who may only be trying to help someone avoid an accident.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

In this case I'd say that there is a lot wrong with the situation. Much more than this board can solve for a diver who is buying a several thousand dollar rebreather off of Craigslist and then deciding to dive it without any training. I don't pretend that this board is a solution for someone like that, and don't advise the members here to either. BTW, this hypothetical guy might also buy a gun in a private sale and decide to learn how to shoot it left-handed, blindfolded and in a crowded place. Again, I don't think that it's SeattleGuns.net's responsibility to set him straight - but they might notify the local authorities if he makes a post indicating intent to do something illegal or harmful to others, just like we all discussed a dude who was certifying people under his own "agency" awhile back.

Going back to the idea of someone buying a Meg with no training. ISC won't ship a CCR to just anyone. They'll only ship the loop to your instructor. So, there is some built in safety to the process of buying and being trained on a rebreather. But again, no one can control the private, secondary market. While it's a noble cause to try to do so, it's not the mission of NWDC to police such transactions.

OK, so now I'll give you another example.

Someone comes onto the board and posts about a disorienting situation they had underwater. They ask what might have caused it. They casually mention that while they were disoriented and unable to see, their dive buddy swam away ... and that they had to end the dive solo. They didn't see anything wrong or unusual with this.

By the rules, I can't point out that as disturbing as the disorientation is ... having a dive buddy just swim off and leave you there at a time when you're incapacitated is an even bigger issue ... and probably an indication that there's some deficiencies in their approach to this dive that should be addressed. I can't say that ... no matter how strongly I feel that having a dive buddy swim off and leave you alone at a time when you are incapacitated completely invalidates the whole reason for diving with a buddy in the first place. I can't suggest that maybe ... just maybe ... this isn't a very safe approach to diving with a buddy.

I can't bring that up. I just have to sit and wonder what would've happened if this disorientation was the onset of something more serious ... and wonder how long it's gonna be before this approach to "buddy" diving ends up leaving us with one less person in our community.

There's such a thing as common sense ... but you don't know what you don't know ... and if you don't even understand why something might be putting you at a high risk, how are you supposed to ask for advice about it?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

On this one, it's a clear answer.

Someone comes onto the board and posts about a disorienting situation they had underwater. They ask what might have caused it.

That's asking for advice, and I would have zero problem with you or anyone else providing it to such a person.

I hope that this appropriately illustrates the rule. It is a tough issue without a perfect solution, and there are some instances of grey areas, I know. Again, this rule is not intended to prevent anyone seeking advice or help from getting it. Rather, it's to prevent members from preaching to one another, "pulling rank", ridiculing others for posting dive reports, reinforcing divisions in terms of dive philosophies, opening up NWDC to liability, etc.

To answer April's comments,

Now with that being said there's a big difference between offering advice and being "pompous and rude". It's easy to miscommunicate on the internet, and people tend to forget that.

The problem is that what is considered "helpful and informative" to a sender might very well be interpreted as "pompous and rude" to the recipient. To me, the recipient's interpretation is more important than fulfilling the sender's desire. And the best way to ensure that the recipient does not feel that they are being unnecessarily scuba policed is to provide advice to them when they ask for it.

There are a ton of people on this board with a lot of knowledge and experience that I would hate to see posting less or leaving the board because they feel like they're not allowed to speak, but at the same time can't say nothing with a clear conscious.

The primary purpose of this board is to serve recreational divers who are looking for dive buddies and information about diving in the Pacific Northwest. It would be unfortunate if experienced people left the board because they are asked to reserve advice for those seeking it. But, I don't see a great reason for this to happen since there is a great abundance of people asking for it.

Why are we all debating this anyway, does anyone think that there's a huge population of members on the forum who are dying for sound advice on how to dive, but for some reason are tongue-tied and can't ask for it? I continually see people asking good questions and receiving smart answers. So, what's the problem here?

PS - because I have ADD and just jumped right into my response to Bob and April, I completely missed the fourth page of this discussion. So, please don't take it as an intentional non-response to the posters on page 4.

[spatman]

Why are we all debating this anyway, does anyone think that there's a huge population of members on the forum who are dying for sound advice on how to dive, but for some reason are tongue-tied and can't ask for it? I continually see people asking good questions and receiving smart answers. So, what's the problem here?

it seems the problem is that people want to be able to help a person who doesn't know what to ask. that's the gray area.

[Tangfish]

Why are we all debating this anyway, does anyone think that there's a huge population of members on the forum who are dying for sound advice on how to dive, but for some reason are tongue-tied and can't ask for it? I continually see people asking good questions and receiving smart answers. So, what's the problem here?

it seems the problem is that people want to be able to help a person who doesn't know what to ask. that's the gray area.

There's nothing in the rules that suggests that answers have to be paired with specifically crafted questions (i.e., someone doesn't have to pose a question about fin selection in order for someone else to give them a tip on what sorts of fins are useful in cold water). It just has to be indicated somewhere, in some form, that the person being given advice welcomes it.

To me, the original post that started this whole debate doesn't indicate anywhere that they want to be told how to execute a dive to 100', that the OP needed to know if such a dive was a good idea, etc. The diver has ~250 dives under their weight belt and is diving within the limits of their certification (AOW).

Ben Price and I are doing a equipment test dive to approximately 100 ft in the Tacoma area on Saturday morning, if anyone has new Christmas equipment they want to test out at depth, feel free to join us. We'll be diving on 32% nitrox with standard AL80's.

The location has yet to be selected.

Now, the following part of the conversation is a little troubling to me. I don't even know when or why it was said, it's sort of out of context, I think, but I see the word 'stupid' - and that is not the way that I think we should welcome people to NWDC.

You'd be surprised what a skinny man with an AL80 can do.

Well I say what many are thinking here.

If your going to get stupid on an aluminum 80...

On another note, I think that it's rather ridiculous that we're having this discussion in relation to a proposed dive to 100' on an AL80. A HUNDRED FEET OMG! This conversation would be much more appropriate in the case of someone buying a Meg off of CL with no CCR certification and planning to dive it with no training (good luck putting it together). Can we find a better example, please?

[Fishstiq]

You know, I just read this whole thread with increasing disbelief.

+1.

I am a product of unsolicited advice. Lynne started it over on scuba board, where the powers that be allow such reckless and irresponsible behavior. She offered some advice, and I was then pointed in the direction of people like Bob, BDub, Scott, and some other great instructors. How dare anyone do such a thing to me! Now here I am, a more knowledgeable and skilled diver, safer, and able to offer to pass on some of what I experienced to other divers who don't know what they don't know. That sucks! Why oh why wasn't this rule in place over on that board?! Oh, the inhumanity!

Bottom line, if you want to dive an al80 to 130 solo and feel safe doing so because if you go OOA your spare air will get you to the surface, go for it! No one on THIS board will say a damn word against ya, it's against the rules!

[Tangfish]

Bottom line, if you want to dive an al80 to 130 solo and feel safe doing so because if you go OOA your spare air will get you to the surface, go for it! No one on THIS board will say a damn word against ya, it's against the rules!

You must have been a drama major, Fishstiq!

I am a product of unsolicited advice. Lynne started it over on scuba board, where the powers that be allow such reckless and irresponsible behavior. She offered some advice, and I was then pointed in the direction of people like Bob, BDub, Scott, and some other great instructors. How dare anyone do such a thing to me! Now here I am, a more knowledgeable and skilled diver, safer, and able to offer to pass on some of what I experienced to other divers who don't know what they don't know. That sucks! Why oh why wasn't this rule in place over on that board?! Oh, the inhumanity!

It's great that Scubaboard has a different policy than this forum. Now you have *gasp* one place to go for unsolicited advice (and unending, circular arguments about differing approaches to diving) and a whole other place to come where you can become a product of solicited advice. Yay!

BTW, I like SB a lot. It does offer many things that you can't find here at NWDC (most notably information about warm water diving), which is why I have been a member of that forum for a long time. There are other good sites out there too. They all offer something a little different. Variety is the spice of life, and no one ever said that you have to choose only one flavor.

[Joshua Smith]

Bottom line, if you want to dive an al80 to 130 solo and feel safe doing so because if you go OOA your spare air will get you to the surface, go for it! No one on THIS board will say a damn word against ya, it's against the rules!

Wrong. Not the case. Perhaps you didn't read what the Mods wrote? Or perhaps you are just looking for an argument? Maybe both?

[spatman]

Bottom line, if you want to dive an al80 to 130 solo and feel safe doing so because if you go OOA your spare air will get you to the surface, go for it! No one on THIS board will say a damn word against ya, it's against the rules!

i think marcoux may be losing his status as :angry:

we may need to change that smilie name to :joe:

[April]

To answer April's comments,

Now with that being said there's a big difference between offering advice and being "pompous and rude". It's easy to miscommunicate on the internet, and people tend to forget that.

The problem is that what is considered "helpful and informative" to a sender might very well be interpreted as "pompous and rude" to the recipient. To me, the recipient's interpretation is more important than fulfilling the sender's desire. And the best way to ensure that the recipient does not feel that they are being unnecessarily scuba policed is to provide advice to them when they ask for it.

Fair enough, but you're not addressing the fact that sometimes people don't know what the dangers are, and don't think to ask questions (Rachael had some good examples). You, Calvin, and many others on this board are very experienced and probably know what all to ask. But some of us are much less experienced and don't know all the dangerous factors that go into diving.

Take me, for example. I moved up here last year from Monterey, still cold water diving so I thought it was pretty similar. But in Monterey I don't think I EVER looked at a tide chart to plan my dives... it would never have occurred to me! I could have very easily planned a dive when I moved up here and been taken for a ride. I learned very quickly (through unsolicited advice) that tides were very important at many dive sites up here.

[Joshua Smith]

But.....for everyone who's upset about this rule....what is troubling to me is that this rule has been here since the very beginning of the site. It's only enforced in extreme cases. In other words, the status quo continues. The same advice that has been dispensed so freely over the years can continue. THIS IS NOT A HARBINGER OF CHANGE. Nothing has changed. The cruel overlords of NWDC are not plotting some new way of crushing freedom of speech.

[Fishstiq]

Bottom line, if you want to dive an al80 to 130 solo and feel safe doing so because if you go OOA your spare air will get you to the surface, go for it! No one on THIS board will say a damn word against ya, it's against the rules!

Wrong. Not the case. Perhaps you didn't read what the Mods wrote? Or perhaps you are just looking for an argument? Maybe both?

I read every word, and around here, there's no need to look for an argument. Wait a sec, one will find you.

Okay then, run with it. Let's say I'm nOob McNeverposts. I'm Naui aow certified. I post a plan to dive the boat at mukilteo to 130fsw on my new 80. I ask if anyone wants to join me. Your response?

[Tangfish]

Fair enough, but you're not addressing the fact that sometimes people don't know what the dangers are, and don't think to ask questions (Rachael had some good examples). You, Calvin, and many others on this board are very experienced and probably know what all to ask. But some of us are much less experienced and don't know all the dangerous factors that go into diving.

Take me, for example. I moved up here last year from Monterey, still cold water diving so I thought it was pretty similar. But in Monterey I don't think I EVER looked at a tide chart to plan my dives... it would never have occurred to me! I could have very easily planned a dive when I moved up here and been taken for a ride. I learned very quickly (through unsolicited advice) that tides were very important at many dive sites up here.

April, thank you for the rational, non-sensationalistic points.

You are correct in that people like you - and I - show up to NWDC not knowing of all the potential differences and dangers in PNW diving. That is why the primary purpose of this forum is to match people up with dive buddies (and instructors, dive shops, etc.)!

A couple random "hey, have you thought of this?" posts as replies to posts by divers we don't already know is NOT a substitute for getting an in-the-water orientation dive from a solid PNW diver or instructor. Who the heck knows if the new poster even read the followup responses? I don't.

April, I don't know you well. But, you should know that I don't consider myself to be a diver who "already knows it all". In contrast, the more into tech diving I get, the more questions I have. Most people are really, really, really motivated to get more information about diving, especially in the beginning. This is because, for better or worse, the media and general public is always sensationalizing the (wrong) dangers of diving. For example, if I hear the phrase "divers swimming with sharks" one more time I think I'm going to puke.

When I was a newly minted OW diver I was damn scared! I was freaked out and didn't trust my reg yet. It wasn't until I was a rescue diver that I sort of started to feel more confident underwater. I posted many n00b questions to Scubaboard and many friendly people helped me out, including some people around here, like Bob and Lynn (I didn't connect who they were vs. their screen names till much later). Also, I used to go to the parking lot at EUP and Cove 2, with all of my florescent colored, tropical dive gear, and wait for divers to show up so that I could ask them to tag along. I didn't know anything about tides & currents either, and learned about them eventually from my dive buddies.

I created Northwest Dive Club so that other people might not have to wait in a parking lot, building up the confidence to ask strangers if they could tag along on a dive, with totally random dive buddies with no indication of their ability as a dive buddy. Instead, a small but significant number of people can now meet each other (virtually) ahead of time, plan dives knowing something about each other, ask for referrals to good instructors and shops, share experiences and photos from the comforts of their own home and so on.

Despite some of you not liking the rule about giving unsolicited advice, I think that I've done a half decent job as steward of something that I wished was around when I first got transplanted here as a warm water diver. My approach is to not diverge from having a first-time-visitor centric view when it comes to the service that NWDC provides. I want people to feel comfortable, ahead and beyond doing anything else at all for them. Then, I want them to be able to meet some good dive buddies, who will then hopefully assess and advise as necessary in the real world. To me, there is no substitute for that last bit.

Maybe you and some of the others who aren't seeing completely eye-to-eye with me on this issue can give me a little teeny weeny bit of faith in that this community has remained a pretty darn warm and inviting one over the years, despite the occasional rocky periods, and that some of the longstanding rules - while not entirely perfect for each and every situation, especially the extreme or fancifully hypothetical ones - might have something to do with it.

What do you think?

[Cera]

All I can say is WOW. Have fun on your dive, becuase the discussion before it...not so much.

[Dashrynn]

Bottom line, if you want to dive an al80 to 130 solo and feel safe doing so because if you go OOA your spare air will get you to the surface, go for it! No one on THIS board will say a damn word against ya, it's against the rules!

Wrong. Not the case. Perhaps you didn't read what the Mods wrote? Or perhaps you are just looking for an argument? Maybe both?

I read every word, and around here, there's no need to look for an argument. Wait a sec, one will find you.

Okay then, run with it. Let's say I'm nOob McNeverposts. I'm Naui aow certified. I post a plan to dive the boat at mukilteo to 130fsw on my new 80. I ask if anyone wants to join me. Your response?

Easy, go diving give them a bigger tank you just so happen to have....several times I have given up my HP100 for the sake of safety and equalization.

[spatman]

I read every word, and around here, there's no need to look for an argument. Wait a sec, one will find you.

especially in most of the threads you seem to decide to post to these days.

Okay then, run with it. Let's say I'm nOob McNeverposts. I'm Naui aow certified. I post a plan to dive the boat at mukilteo to 130fsw on my new 80. I ask if anyone wants to join me. Your response?

"i have a bigger tank you can borrow if you'd like. 80cf won't give much bottom time at 130fsw, especially if i or whoever your buddy is should run into trouble and need to share your air. we can talk more about that when we meet up in person."

[Grateful Diver]

I think we need a club dive. How many of ya'll were at Redondo in July? We had over 60 folks from the club there ... all sorts of divers ... and everybody had a great time.

Ain't that why we're here? Sheesh ... let's drop this topic and go diving ...

Okay then, run with it. Let's say I'm nOob McNeverposts. I'm Naui aow certified. I post a plan to dive the boat at mukilteo to 130fsw on my new 80. I ask if anyone wants to join me. Your response?

Remember Seth? He got some flack ... including from me ... for doing dives to 130 feet on AL80's. After a few exchanges, we ended up diving 100-foot rock together. Turns out we actually liked each other.

Haven't seen the dude in a while now. Hope he's OK ... I enjoyed our dive a lot ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[Tangfish]

I think we need a club dive. How many of ya'll were at Redondo in July? We had over 60 folks from the club there ... all sorts of divers ... and everybody had a great time.

Ain't that why we're here? Sheesh ... let's drop this topic and go diving ...

Well said. Bob, you busy next Tuesday or Wednesday? I've been dying to get wet!

[Fishstiq]

I read every word, and around here, there's no need to look for an argument. Wait a sec, one will find you.

especially in most of the threads you seem to decide to post to .

Very, very good point Matt.

[Tangfish]

In true NWDC fashion, the tempest in a teapot turns out to be just a teapot and a kettle arguing with each other and then going diving together.

And yeah, and you can quote me on that.

[rjarnold]

Ain't that why we're here? Sheesh ... let's drop this topic and go diving ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I really want a yellow house/hood canal dive again...

[Geek]

In true NWDC fashion, the tempest in a teapot turns out to be just a teapot and a kettle arguing with each other and then going diving together.

And yeah, and you can quote me on that.

[Pez7378]

Bottom line, if you want to dive an al80 to 130 solo and feel safe doing so because if you go OOA your spare air will get you to the surface, go for it! No one on THIS board will say a damn word against ya, it's against the rules!

Wrong. Not the case. Perhaps you didn't read what the Mods wrote? Or perhaps you are just looking for an argument? Maybe both?

I read every word, and around here, there's no need to look for an argument. Wait a sec, one will find you.

Okay then, run with it. Let's say I'm nOob McNeverposts. I'm Naui aow certified. I post a plan to dive the boat at mukilteo to 130fsw on my new 80. I ask if anyone wants to join me. Your response?

Are you Polish?

[airsix]

Just a few things and then I think I'm going to take a break for a few days.

This club has evolved into more than a sign-up sheet for a mid-week after-work dive. In many ways the membership of this board have become extended family. We help each other, laugh with each other, and we watch out for each other. Very often the individual who needs help most is the person most unaware that it is needed. If we as their diving extended-family are not going to take responsibility and speak up please tell me who will. WHO is closer and better positioned for the job than this community? Offering advice does not take away anyone's freedom. It gives them more.

Joe is my canary in the coal mine. When something rubs him wrong I generally view it as an alarm that things are going off the rails and it's time to reevaluate. I'm reevaluating a lot of things right now. The irony is this all started with a comment ("getting stupid") made by someone who isn't a card carrying member of the so-called safety patrol (and he didn't mean any harm by it), yet all the usual suspects are being rounded up and put on trial anyway. It tells me there is some pretty deep seated animosity toward club members who are concerned about the safety of others. I think that's pretty messed up, and I don't get it. With the possible exception of 1 or 2 hard-liners (on both sides of the divide) I don't understand why friendship doesn't win out over our differences. I've met the majority of the people posting in this thread and I like all of you. I wish you'd see the value of the relationships that are at stake when the snide remarks start bouncing back and forth. It's especially disturbing when someone goes out of their way to make a sincere thoughtful recommendation and they are openly mocked. I expected better.

Growing up I didn't like my big sister telling me what to do. I get that, but A) I don't hate her for it, and B) she was usually right. Lastly, if someone tries to help me and I misinterpret their good intentions isn't that MY problem?

-Ben

[Grateful Diver]

I think we need a club dive. How many of ya'll were at Redondo in July? We had over 60 folks from the club there ... all sorts of divers ... and everybody had a great time.

Ain't that why we're here? Sheesh ... let's drop this topic and go diving ...

Well said. Bob, you busy next Tuesday or Wednesday? I've been dying to get wet!

Sounds like fun ... let's go diving ... I'm available after work either day ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)