Can lights

[fnerg]

RESOLVED:

I want a can light.

UP IN THE AIR/OPEN TO DEBATE/FLAMEWARS/MULTI-DECADE FEUDS

Which light do I want?

My budget limit is around $600-$700. I'll be using it for tech diving when I save up enough for the rest of the gear and classes, and it'd be nice to be able to use it for a focus light, meaning it'd be nice if the light level was adjustable. (No hotspots, and I want my strobe to be providing most of the light for the picture, since it's got the best color spectrum)

I realize that may be a good/fast/cheap, pick two sort of situation, and of those requirements, using it as a focus light is the one I'm willing to let slide, but hey, I can always hope, right?

[Linedog]

[kdupreez]

I've heard some really good things about Dusty's lights for half of your budget..

Alternatively, go look on decostop for halcyon, lightmonkey, salvo lights.

If you get an LED, its good for travel and very long burn time

I you get HID, super bright, cuts though everything here in PNW, but less burn time..

For both you can get diffusers or video reflectors that can be used as video lights or camera lights..

If I was you, I'd ask Dusty to go for a "demo" dive.. and take a coupe of people with LED's and HID's with you..

BTW - cofford is also making some KICK ASS 35 Watt HID lights..

Koos

[Jeff Pack]

The new Dive Xtra's X-Ray Mk1 caught my eye. Its not a can, but a flat lipo battery pack. Fingerman handle or goodman, and I like the clip arrangement. But 1100$ ( in that range), is a big chunk of change.

I've seen one of Dusty's lights when I dove with Raptor last week. For the price, tough to beat.

[Scubie Doo]

I have one of dusty's lights and love it. Price is right and it is well built. Dusty also provides great service and he stands behind his work.

[coulterboy]

You have two peeps in this board that actively make lights. Dusty and H20doctor. I happen to have Doc's light, and I'm very well satisfied with it. Dove with people that have Dusty's light too, and they performed good too.

Not only that, Doc also makes video lights. He is currently making a video light and a can light for two people on the board.

You can't go wrong with any of the two. Good local support and darn cheap.

[mz53480]

I have a 'Custom Divers' 10w HID and a 'h2odoc-made' 3LED. You're welcome to try both if you like.
MZ

[H20doctor]

Burp....i build you a 700.00 light.. Better have a welding shield for your eyes..

[H20doctor]

The new Dive Xtra's X-Ray Mk1 caught my eye. Its not a can, but a flat lipo battery pack. Fingerman handle or goodman, and I like the clip arrangement. But 1100$ ( in that range), is a big chunk of change.

I've seen one of Dusty's lights when I dove with Raptor last week. For the price, tough to beat.

Dive x light isnt ready for the mass public yet.. And its more up around 2200 .. Price

[Dusty2]

I can do all that for half the price. Plain and simple.

[Kees]

The new Dive Xtra's X-Ray Mk1 caught my eye. Its not a can, but a flat lipo battery pack. Fingerman handle or goodman, and I like the clip arrangement. But 1100$ ( in that range), is a big chunk of change.

I think the X-Ray is in the $2000 range, but it does have some cool features. I can't wait to see one in person.

Take a look at the lights that are being produced locally and some of the commercial lights.

Light Monkey is essentially a continuation of the company Salvo. A light you get from either is supported by Light Monkey now. Light Monkey, Salvo, Sartek and Halcyon make very similar lights, often with some interchangeable parts (HID reflectors and battery packs). LED models from these companies are somewhat less bright than a 21W HID, but have a larger spill (I have seen Light Monkey and Halcyon LEDs in the water). I would estimate them at 80% of the brightness of a 21W HID and maybe 50-60% of a 35W HID although this is harder for me to judge as I only own a 21W HID. Sometimes this spill is desirable (illuminating a larger area, looking at critters) while other times it is less than optimal (makes it more difficult to signal).

The spill is fairly dim in all cases, I think if you learn to control where the edge of the light falls it would work well as a focus light. The hotspot on pretty much any light is not ideal for use as a focus light, but I'm not aware of any light that will get dim enough to work for this. If the spill is too bright, a cheap UK Mini Q40 LED light would probably work as a focus (I've seen them strapped to camera rigs before), while you can keep your primary light dedicated to signalling and general diving. I am not a photographer though, so I'm not sure what's ideal for a focus light.

If you decide to go for a commercial light would keep an eye on the DecoStop forums http://thedecostop.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=38. You can typically pick up a light in your price range if you keep a close eye out and wait a few months. Posting in the want to buy section can also usually net some results.

For me, the biggest things to look for in a light are:
- A longer, thinner battery pack that makes it easy to stow a longhose (which may or may not apply to you).
- A good reflector with a long shroud (focuses light and prevents it from blinding your buddies). You shouldn't be able to see the test tube/bulb of an HID from looking directly from the side. These can be purchased later, if necessary and run $100-$150.
- A 4hr+ burn time, which is enough for three hour long dives without risking a damaging your battery with a deep discharge.
- 21W brightness or better. This insures your light is usable for communication in poor conditions when the water eats a lot of your light or excellent conditions when the ambient washes out dimmer lights. 10W is okay, but they're a little anemic in very poor or very bright conditions.

As a general rule:
10W HID is a little dim for around here, a bit dimmer than a modern LED canister light.
21W HID is a good standard, fairly common light. You'll see more of these than anything else, I suspect.
35W HID is a bright light that is becoming increasingly common.
50W HID is getting into the video lighting territory and probably doesn't have the burn time for day-to-day diving.

Here's a brief summary of the lights available, as I see it:

Dusty's Lights
I haven't seen one in person and so I won't comment. I have only heard good things though, so take a look.

H2ODoc's Lights
Again, I haven't seen one in person, but I've heard good things. Check 'em out, bring sunglasses.

Salvo/Light Monkey Lights
I think these are probably the most common lights I see around dive sites in Seattle. The 21W HIDs are typically the most often seen, although it's not rare to see the 35W HIDs or the LED models either. These lights take the same reflectors as the Halcyon and 5thD lights. Salvo and Light Monkey use cylindrical lightheads for the most part, although I believe some older 35W lightheads are roughly square.

You may be able to find an older 10W HID on the used market for a good price. These aren't quite as bright as a 21W, and I think the extra brightness is worth it, especially with your budget. The 10Ws generally come in around the $400 range.

Most Light Monkey HID lights use a remote ballast design that places the electronics for the light in the canister instead of the lighthead. This makes the canister a bit more bulky and the light head considerably smaller. If you are a smaller person, a longer lighthead can make a difference - the back of the light can interfere with your elbow. It's best if you try both a remote and non-remote light before making a decision, it bothers some people more than others.

Newer light monkey lights use a sealed canister design with lithium batteries and banana connectors. Older lights from Salvo (and perhaps Light Monkey, but I'm not sure) use NiMh battery packs with Anderson connectors. Banana connectors are more reliable, but you'll probably pay more to pick up a newer light with this technology. I have not owned a light with Anderson connectors, but the problems seem to be uncommon, but not non-existent. I have not encountered anyone that has had issues with banana connectors.

The lithium batteries give Light Monkey lights a slight advantage on runtime on similarly sized battery packs. The sealed design provides a second layer of protection should you fail to latch the lid, or fail to do it correctly (human error is a significant concern, people do flood battery packs). The disadvantage is that if you would like multiple batteries, you need to purchase multiple canisters, as the two are permanently connected.

Both Light Monkey and Salvo use Delrin for the construction of their battery canisters and lightheads. Their battery canisters are milled from a solid piece of Delrin, eliminating the need for an O-ring seal at the bottom of the canister.


5thD Lights
I've only seen 35W HIDs from 5thD, but they do put out a great deal of light. All the lights I've seen use a cylindrical remote ballast with - I believe - NiMh packs. They appear well built.

Despite having a remote ballast, however, these lights have a fairly large lighthead. To keep up with the power draw of a 35W light, they also tend to have large battery packs. I believe all of these lights are custom made, so a smaller 21W could probably be built, if it was desired. I believe the 35W lights run around $1500 new, and you're unlikely to encounter a used version.

All the 5thD lights I've seen use acrylic for the construction of their canisters, using an O-ring seal at the bottom. This is likely slightly more susceptible to fall damage, but if you're not careful with your gear and you find you drop your can light a lot, you probably should look into a different kind of light (pretty much every component in a canister light, especially a HID light, is damaged by falling).


Halcyon Lights
In a lot of ways, Halcyon lights are similar to Salvo/Light Monkey lights. Halcyon does not produce a 35W HID. Halcyon places the ballast in the lighthead, making the lighthead larger than a LM light and the canister smaller. Halcyon also uses
NiMh batteries resulting in a slightly shorter burn time. The Halcyon 9ah pack is probably the most commonly seen, with a burn time of 4 hours when paired with a 21W HID.

Batteries in a Halcyon light are not sealed so you can have multiple batteries while using only one canister. In case of a minor flood, newer Halcyon batteries come with standoffs, so they are flood resistant (the battery rests about a centimeter away from all walls of the canister so that a small amount of water intrusion does not ruin the battery). Newer Halcyon lights use banana connectors with a delrin lid, older Halcyon lights use a acrylic lid and Anderson connecters.

With an e/o cord, Halcyon canisters are somewhat more flexible as you do not need to match a canister (with an internal ballast) to a specific lighthead.

You are likely to encounter 18W HID lights on the used market. These have a slightly smaller ballast combined with an older style of bulb (Welch-Allyn) that is a bit more fragile and a bit more expensive to replace. These lights burn just as bright as a 21W in a slightly warmer color than newer lights that use Brightstar bulbs (Light Monkey, most Salvo lights and I believe 5thD lights). The older lights can be recognized at a glance by their smaller, more square basalt compared to a newer 21W's longer, more rectangular ballast. I've seen these lightheads paired with both old and new style canisters. These can often be found for a great price.

Full disclosure, I own a Halcyon 21W with a 9ah pack. I also have long arms and I am very happy with it.


Sartek Lights
Pretty uncommon, but a couple of my buddies have these. I know very little about Sartek lights. Their lightheads appear to be of high quality, their older batteries have a squatter shape than Light Monkey or Halcyon canisters but with a similar construction, their newer ones are better shaped with odd construction choices. I believe they too use the same Brightstar bulb and ballast as Halcyon, Light Monkey and Salvo.

I have no issues with their lightheads, but some of their goodman handles seem overly complicated, with a number of adjustment points that aren't really necessary. Their canisters are secured using a pin and a dangling split ring rather than latches. I'm not a huge fan of the design.

Good luck in choosing a light! I would be happy to let you check mine out if you're interested.

[Dusty2]

If your going to be down in the south end anytime soon let me know and your welcome to take one of my lights out. I'd be glad to meet you and talk about what you want and show you how you can get it with one of my lights. I have sold to tech divers and cave tech divers. They have dove them over 250 feet deep repeatedly and never experienced a problem. I have one caver that has had his for over a year and has over a 100 cave dives with it. He loves it and has sold several to his buddies after they dove with him. There are a bunch of board members that dive my lights and you are not hearing any negative comments so I would say that's a pretty good recommendation in itself.

[raptor]

I do have Dusty light and like it a lot so does my dive buddy he also got one. For the price it is great and i love the fact that the battery's are cheap and you can fly with them. I had a big spendy light and the battery pack alone cost more then dusty light. Plus with lithium battery you are not suppose to fly with most of them, they are to big and hazardous.

[Mattleycrue76]

Holy Bat-Post Kees!

I only got about two thirds through it but It sounds like you nailed it. My recomendation would be a lightly (pardon the pun) used 21w HID from Salvo/Light Monkey or Halcyon.


I hear a lot of good things about Dusty's light, but haven't seen one in action yet.

[Dashrynn]

. Plus with lithium battery you are not suppose to fly with most of them, they are to big and hazardous.

There was a big discussion on tds about this misconception. You are allowed a max of two 300watt batteries. And under 100 watts all you want so long as they are installed in your device. I'm mobile right now or I would post the link.

[raptor]

Yes that is true, but I think because I ship a lot of haz cargo this will get more restricted. I was also involved with a fire that started with lithium batt.

[Dusty2]

Besides you ain't going to find a canister battery pack for $30 anywhere else. That is why I went with the design I did. You can buy them from almost any RC model store anywhere and if your going to the boonies where you have no power 2 or 3 extra packs won't break the bank or take up allot of luggage space or weight.

[H20doctor]

pictures speak a thousand words

H2ODoc's Lights
Again, I haven't seen one in person, but I've heard good things. Check 'em out, bring sunglasses.

Thank Kees

[funkydiver]

If your going to be down in the south end anytime soon let me know and your welcome to take one of my lights out. I'd be glad to meet you and talk about what you want and show you how you can get it with one of my lights. I have sold to tech divers and cave tech divers. They have dove them over 250 feet deep repeatedly and never experienced a problem. I have one caver that has had his for over a year and has over a 100 cave dives with it. He loves it and has sold several to his buddies after they dove with him. There are a bunch of board members that dive my lights and you are not hearing any negative comments so I would say that's a pretty good recommendation in itself.

Just got one in my stocking for Christmas from my dive-buddy wife, Oregondiver

If it dives half as good as it looks (which I'm sure it will), I'll be doing the happy dance under water

Thanks Dusty for making awesome lights and thanks wife for buying me said awesome lights
funkydiver

[airsix]

Besides you ain't going to find a canister battery pack for $30 anywhere else. That is why I went with the design I did. You can buy them from almost any RC model store anywhere and if your going to the boonies where you have no power 2 or 3 extra packs won't break the bank or take up allot of luggage space or weight.

As a hobby light builder I thought this was brilliant on your part. It brings the cost down significantly because these packs are mass-produced and consequently much cheaper per watt than any alternative I can think of.

Ben

[Dashrynn]

pictures speak a thousand words

[sarcasm]Actually pictures don't say a word[/sarcasm]

But since you said that, what do you gather from this?

[Dashrynn]

Besides you ain't going to find a canister battery pack for $30 anywhere else. That is why I went with the design I did. You can buy them from almost any RC model store anywhere and if your going to the boonies where you have no power 2 or 3 extra packs won't break the bank or take up allot of luggage space or weight.

As a hobby light builder I thought this was brilliant on your part. It brings the cost down significantly because these packs are mass-produced and consequently much cheaper per watt than any alternative I can think of.

Ben

If you also built your own packs cost would go down, for 35$ I can build a pack with 45.88 watts vs the nimh 32.4 watts. That's with safety circuits. Plus your size would go down, and you would have longer burn time considering nimh chemistry can only utilize 80-90% of its calculated capacity. But that's just something to think about. The batteries now are a cheap reliable source of energy able to fulfill dives, hell I use them in my rebuild of the crappy light that edge dive whatever sold me.

[CaptnJack]

If you also built your own packs cost would go down, for 35$ I can build a pack with 45.88 watts vs the nimh 32.4 watts. That's with safety circuits. Plus your size would go down, and you would have longer burn time considering nimh chemistry can only utilize 80-90% of its calculated capacity. But that's just something to think about. The batteries now are a cheap reliable source of energy able to fulfill dives, hell I use them in my rebuild of the crappy light that edge dive whatever sold me.

If you burn your batteries to 80-90% of rated capacity their life will be measured in weeks or months. I'd much rather have a larger sized pack only regularly discharged to 50% of capacity which then lasts me 5+ years. And in a pinch there's that extra 50% capacity, like when you're having a pretty bad day in a cave.

[Dusty2]

The other side of the using 80 to 90% of your battery is that the good chargers won't recognize a battery that is drained below a given voltage. Thus they will not charge fully drained batteries and using an unregulated power supply to charge batteries is dangerous. Having a couple of extra packs and changing out after one or two dives is how I play it. The light will let you know if the batteries are getting low. It will begin to strobe on it's own.

Battery capacity is why I only use high output batteries. I would never put anything below 4000 mAh batteries in one of my lights. I have chosen Venom 4600/5000mAh batteries because they specialize in high performance high output batteries for RC racing.

[Dashrynn]

The other side of the using 80 to 90% of your battery is that the good chargers won't recognize a battery that is drained below a given voltage. Thus they will not charge fully drained batteries and using an unregulated power supply to charge batteries is dangerous. Having a couple of extra packs and changing out after one or two dives is how I play it. The light will let you know if the batteries are getting low. It will begin to strobe on it's own.

Battery capacity is why I only use high output batteries. I would never put anything below 4000 mAh batteries in one of my lights. I have chosen Venom 4600/5000mAh batteries because they specialize in high performance high output batteries for RC racing.

I just want to clarify, I NEVER said anything about how much you use from the NIMH pack. I stated you can normally only use 80%-90% of its calculated capacity. This is mostly due to self discharging (20% or more in some, within first 24 hours).

Also I would like to note the venom 5000mah pack is 36 watts, not much difference between 32.4 and 36(unless we are talking nitrox ).