Do you really need to take a class for ....?

[Peter Guy]

On another thread (about going to the I-beams) several posters urged the OP to "take a class" about gas management/rock bottom.

[Disclaimer -- this is NOT a suggestion that people shouldn't take a class nor that people shouldn't learn about gas management -- DIVERS SHOULD KNOW ABOUT GAS PLANNING!!!]

BUT, this, and other threads, got me to thinking about the basic question -- Do you really need to take a class for ("X" -- put in your own topic)?

For example, the specific issue of Gas Management is, at its heart, pretty simple and Grateful Diver (and others) have published lots of information about the topic. I believe a diver could readily learn the topic just by reading the threads (or other information online), do some practice planning and become competent on the topic.

Or, for another example, do you REALLY need a "class" to learn to dive Nitrox? After all, we ALL dive "Nitrox" from the gitgo -- we just call it "air." Is there any REAL need for a "class" as opposed to just learning?

And, last, but not least, the whole issue of "deco" -- since we all do "deco" (every dive is a deco dive) is there any real reason that people must take a "deco" class in order to dive below "recreational limits"?

Just some thoughts from someone who has taken a LOT of classes and non-class instruction -- but who wonders if the "take a class" concept is somewhat oversold.

[Tom Nic]

For example, the specific issue of Gas Management is, at its heart, pretty simple

This depends largely on the individual diver and what classes we're talking about. "Simple" to one is NOT simple to another!

Classes of course are only as good as their teachers.

That said, some folks learn best in that kind of environment. I am strongly considering going back to school to complete advanced degrees in my field, and after 25 + years I "know my stuff". However, I know also "know what I don't know" and classes will be much more valuable for me than they were when I was an 18-22 year old "kid" in college!

Not all classes are created equal, for example GD's AOW and the average Padi AOW... worlds apart.

Self study is good... to a point, but with certain critical skills a teacher is essential IMO. And to be frank, not everyone of us divers is the brightest bulb to be able to do a good job in self study. Worse yet would be a dimmer bulb who thinks they are a brighter bulb, thinking they know what's what, then killing themselves or someone else because they didn't know what's what. ](*,) (again, "You don't know what you don't know.")

A good, willing, knowledgeable, attentive dive mentor can be worth MUCH MORE than a class...

I prefer a combination of both!

[dwashbur]

Just my view as an instructor-in-training:

In general, it's a good idea to learn stuff like you mentioned in a class setting, because there's always a chance somebody will ask a good question that you or someone else in the class didn't think of. It's also a good way to meet other divers and hook up.

As for the specific topics you mentioned, I've been told that my girls and I have some of the best gas management around, and we didn't take a class. We use a technique that I came up with on my own. Having said that, gas management is EVERYTHING in this sport, so if one has a chance to pick someone else's brain for better ways to do it, it's easily worth the cost. Everything in life is a trade-off, and any effective way to get a better handle on air usage is a good trade-off for whatever is required to learn it.

Nitrox: technically, one could dive Nitrox without being certified or taking a class (I've done it). The class/certification reinforces a couple of things, like the modified tables and maximum depth limits related to oxygen toxicity and all that. Once again, in a group setting, questions and comments are likely to come up that I didn't think of. So it's probably a good idea.

As for deco, I wouldn't even consider deliberately going beyond the limits or going into deco without further training. There are just too many things that I'm not going to think of, so I'm going to get with somebody who's been there and came back to tell the story, and dissect their brain as deeply as I can.

Now, there are some "classes" that I do find a little superfluous, but that's just me and I could very well be off-base. My suggestion would be, if there's any doubt at all about your ability to do X properly and safely, take the class.

[Tom Nic]

As for the specific topics you mentioned, I've been told that my girls and I have some of the best gas management around, and we didn't take a class.

Do you mean gas management or air consumption? Two very different things.

[Joshua Smith]

I have a pretty tall stack of C-cards from an alphabet of different agencies. (PADI, TDI, IANTD) and for me, the classes were pretty valuable- I understood Nitrox before I took the class, but it was bundled with advanced Nitrox and deco procedures- and I learned a whole freaking lot more than how to calculate partial pressures and MODS during those classes. The attitude that "I understand how this works, so I'm just going to go to 170 feet for 25 or 30 minutes" seems kind of ill advised to me. For myself, I've found that when I get a new cert, I'm then ready to start learning at another level. I just got Trimix certified on my rebreather a week ago, for example. I can go to 200 feet, now. But even though I "have" the knowledge, I don't have the experience. And that puts me at a different level of risk than a diver with hundreds of dives at those depths. So, I'm doing what I have done throughout the relatively short time I've been diving: I seek out more experienced divers who are willing to dive with me, and I buy them beer.
I learn as much from diving with more experienced divers in the first couple of months after a class as I did in that class, typically.
In my opinion, the class is very important, but equally as important is the real world experience gained immediately after the class.

All that said, I think some of the C-cards are kind of silly- I never got certified to dive a dry suit, or night dive, or any of that stuff. But a lot of people are happy to pay someone to teach them these things- a lot of people hire "life coaches," too- and who am I to tell them not to?

[spatman]

i would agree that it largely is up to the individual as to the best approach to learn things. some people learn extremely well from books, and other by action. i'm a little of both.

i will read and learn a lot on my own, but won't feel secure enough in my knowledge until i have had a chance to work with an instructor or other qualified person. this gives me an opportunity to assess whether i absorbed information and am applying it correctly. it also allows for that instructor to check and see if i had overlooked anything, or misinterpreted it.

in addition, the ability to discuss and interact about the subject may also raise questions or present scenarios not otherwise covered in written materials.

so to each his/her own, but i prefer to learn in a first hand, personal way as well as on my own.

my 2psi

[Nwbrewer]

As for the specific topics you mentioned, I've been told that my girls and I have some of the best gas management around, and we didn't take a class. We use a technique that I came up with on my own.

Dave,

Do you have a document or something you'd care to share? How does your gas management planning vary from that taught by Bdub, GD and others?

Always intrested in expanding the breadth of my knowledge.

Thanks!

Jake

[dwashbur]

As for the specific topics you mentioned, I've been told that my girls and I have some of the best gas management around, and we didn't take a class.

Do you mean gas management or air consumption? Two very different things.

Uh, what's the difference? I guess I meant air consumption. We have routinely done 60+ minute dives to 60 and 70 fsw on a steel 80 tank, and since we got our 95's we tend to go even longer. When we plug our numbers into the software that came with my wife's Aladin Prime, 0.6 cfm is a bad day. Whichever that is, we seem to be good at it.

Brewer, no, I don't have anything written down at this point because I'm still developing it. I haven't seen any of the others' material so I don't know how or if it differs. Briefly, we breathe to a predetermined rhythm that we set up in our heads. I usually use an 8 count, which is to say I inhale to a slow 8 count and exhale to a slow 8 count. The count forces me to slow my breathing and make it nice and deep, which helps preserve my air supply. My daughter was having trouble going through her air too fast until I taught her how to do it. We're all very musical, which makes it easier for all of us to pick up this technique. We're all also heavily blessed with ADD, which makes splitting our concentration between the breath count and other stuff easier than it might be for other folks without that blessing. I can't say that my approach is better or worse than any other, I just know it works for us. I haven't recommended it to anybody else at this point because I'm still formulating exactly how to present it to someone who doesn't already know how my scrambled brain works. Anyway, there it is for what it's worth.

[airsix]

Good comments, and I especially like what Josh said. Nothing beats having mentors.

There are some areas of this sport where it's not enough to learn procedures - you need to learn theory first, then procedures. I think the best place to learn theory is in a class and the best place to learn procedures is during a pre-dive briefing and practice dives. Pre-dive isn't the place to learn theory, and classroom isn't the place to learn procedure.

Classes I think should be taught and taken by all divers without exception:
Gass planning, Nitrox, Rescue

There are too many fluff classes and not enough emphasis on the critical stuff. I mean that generally, but not universally. Luckily we have some really good instructors in our community who know what's important.

-Ben

[airsix]

As for the specific topics you mentioned, I've been told that my girls and I have some of the best gas management around, and we didn't take a class.

Do you mean gas management or air consumption? Two very different things.

Uh, what's the difference?

The difference is like the difference between a budget and an expense report. One is a plan before the fact and the other is report of the outcome after-the-fact.

-Ben

[LCF]

I think an instructor is good for several things you can't get from a book:

1. An instructor can explain or clarify stuff you've run into on your own that you are confused about or unsure of.

2. An instructor can give you some feedback on whether the stuff you've run into on your own is mainstream or somebody's wild personal ravings.

3. An instructor can help you learn specific techniques (eg. back kick) which are hard to learn on your own.

4. An instructor can give you feedback on in-water skills, and help you solve technique problems.

5. Probably the most important, an instructor can evaluate your skills to see if you really are as good as you think you are.

Stuff like gas management and Nitrox is almost completely book-learning and applying the intellectual principles to normal diving. When you start getting into things like deco, though, in-water skills really begin to become important. Not only do you have to learn a lot of theory about planning deco and how to use deco gases, but you have to demonstrate stability and calm in the face of problems.

There are people who have dived with me who think my skills are up to that standard, but two instructors have felt otherwise. I'm glad to have them for the feedback, because getting cocky about my abilities could definitely get me hurt.

I don't think you need a class to boat dive, or maybe even to learn about Nitrox, but deco . . .

Peter, remember, you've been exposed to an awful lot of things the average diver doesn't see, both through being married to a woman with a hyperactive curiosity and through having had some world-class instruction.

[Pez7378]

This brings to mind a story in "Diver Down" about a man who thought he knew what he didn't know and against the advice of people far more experienced then he was, managed to kill himself deep inside a florida cave system. He had calculated his own system for managing his gas down to the last breath. Unfortunately his last breath came several hundred feet inside a technically challenging cave. Would a class have saved him? Doubtful, he was a very educated but not very experienced diver who did a cave dive solo.

I didn't take a Drysuit orientation.......and "corked" on my second or third drysuit dive. This landed me in the ER for some "precautionary" O2. If the same thing happened to me today I'd shrug it off. But I learned something valuable from the experience. Sometimes I think the "CLASS" just offers divers a little more confidence to begin a new chapter in their diving "manual".

[Tom Nic]

As for the specific topics you mentioned, I've been told that my girls and I have some of the best gas management around, and we didn't take a class.

Do you mean gas management or air consumption? Two very different things.

Uh, what's the difference? I guess I meant air consumption.

This makes the point very eloquently in favor of a class... or at least a definition of terms.

I can have horrible air consumption, but dive very safely because of my excellent gas management planning. In addition, I can have great air consumption, and because of poor or deficient gas management planning get myself (and my buddy) into a very dangerous situation.

Gas management is planning my dive so that I KNOW have enough gas to get myself and a buddy safely to the surface in the event of a catastrophic failure. (mathmatic calcs based on sac rate & tank sizes & the nature of the dive)

At the same time it also makes the point for mentors... I can go through all the classes and be rated an instructor with a very few (IMO - don't have at my fingertips what the minimum dives are for the different agencies to be an instructor, but I know they aren't very high) dives under my belt. That means I have a fair amount of information, but possibly a need for more experience.

[Sounder]

As for the specific topics you mentioned, I've been told that my girls and I have some of the best gas management around, and we didn't take a class.

Do you mean gas management or air consumption? Two very different things.

Uh, what's the difference? I guess I meant air consumption. We have routinely done 60+ minute dives to 60 and 70 fsw on a steel 80 tank, and since we got our 95's we tend to go even longer. When we plug our numbers into the software that came with my wife's Aladin Prime, 0.6 cfm is a bad day. Whichever that is, we seem to be good at it.

I mean absolutely no disrespect by this, but hearing someone who is becoming an instructor not know the difference between gas planning and gas consumption raises a VERY large red flag with me.

Further, I don't believe there are other "systems" than can be derived for determining exactly how much gas you and your boddy both need to ensure you can get the BOTH of you to the surface safely and appropriately following a complete gas-loss failure or OOA emergency. The reason I don't believe there are other "systems" that can be used is because it's simple math & physics. Math & physics don't change, and until they do, they'll determine what the numbers are.

A computer is a great tool... until it floods, fails, or until the user bumps the wrong button and the computer goes into a mode the user isn't used to normally working in (like from "computer mode" to "gauge mode"). Then the user is stuck unless he/she knows how to do it manually with pencil and paper.

They're fantastic in determinding SAC rates based on the tank, and using that to determine the real RMV. One must know, however, what their RMV is when they're completely maxed-out stressed, sharing air with with their buddy who is also maxed-out stressed, fighting a 2-knot current to get back to shore. Unless you KNOW (i.e. having tested/done a stressed-out-sprint at a known depth for a good duration of time) what your RMV and your buddy's RMV are under these conditions, and PLAN for this possibility, I can almost certainly bet that you don't have enough gas for it... and then we're left hoping that situation doesn't happen.

In my opinion, this is just one of MANY skills instructors should have "down cold" before entering their instructor training... and this is a critical skill that should be part of dive training.

As this relates to the OP, I believe that the quality of what is learned depends on the quality of the instructor. It seems intuitive that the student shouldn't be a stronger diver than the instructor. Unfortunately, diving is a business and the more courses someone takes, the more money the agency makes... up to and including "instructor."

The student will learn as much as the instructor can offer, but nothing more. The same goes for a good mentor (as was in my case). I was fortunate to have 2 amazing mentors from whom I learned SOOOOO much more than I could have learned from an average scuba instructor... and it wasn't a class setting at all.

So I believe that the question of whether you need the class or not is TOTALLY based on who you're learning from. If you need to get a certain number of c-cards for something, or need a c-card to get something like nitrox or be allowed on an "advanced" dive while on vacation, then a class is the right way to go... but that's just to get the cert. If you want to really learn something, I believe you can learn from a practitioner far better than from someone who's just reading you the material in their manual. Ideally, instructors would be practitioners of all these skills, but unfortunately not all of them are.

[BDub]

As for the specific topics you mentioned, I've been told that my girls and I have some of the best gas management around, and we didn't take a class.

Do you mean gas management or air consumption? Two very different things.

Uh, what's the difference? I guess I meant air consumption. We have routinely done 60+ minute dives to 60 and 70 fsw on a steel 80 tank, and since we got our 95's we tend to go even longer. When we plug our numbers into the software that came with my wife's Aladin Prime, 0.6 cfm is a bad day. Whichever that is, we seem to be good at it.

Kind of like what Ben described in his post (budget and expense)...

It's good to know what kind of mileage your car gets (sac/rmv), but if you're going on roadtrip through a long stretch with no gas stations, it's more important that you know ahead of time whether you have enough gas to even make the trip.

Consumption is simply how much gas you use. Management is managing your gas throughout the dive...Do you have enough gas for this dive? Is your consumption during the dive what you actually planned? If not, how does this effect the team, and how do you need to modify the dive? How much gas do you need to get the team to the surface safely?

There's obviously more, but it's important to understand that consumption is much different than planning and management. Consumption helps to make some assumptions which helps make the plan. Management is simply ensuring the dive is going to plan, which is based on assumptions you make from knowing your consumption.

[dwashbur]

As for the specific topics you mentioned, I've been told that my girls and I have some of the best gas management around, and we didn't take a class.

Do you mean gas management or air consumption? Two very different things.

Uh, what's the difference? I guess I meant air consumption.

This makes the point very eloquently in favor of a class... or at least a definition of terms.

I can have horrible air consumption, but dive very safely because of my excellent gas management planning. In addition, I can have great air consumption, and because of poor or deficient gas management planning get myself (and my buddy) into a very dangerous situation.

Gas management is planning my dive so that I KNOW have enough gas to get myself and a buddy safely to the surface in the event of a catastrophic failure. (mathmatic calcs based on sac rate & tank sizes & the nature of the dive)

Okay, I understand now. Or as a French hippie might say, je diggue We have both. Our gas management practice is to turn around when one of us hits halfway on the tank capacity, and though our tanks are rated at 2400, I usually set this mark at 1400-1500 just to be careful. Part of the reason this works for us is because we tend to move very slowly, and hence we don't cover a lot of ground or distance. In addition, the bottom half of our tank is normally consumed at safety stop depth or less, because we like to find fun stuff in the shallow water, too. I'm not sure what's the best way to explain it, but it works.

[Sounder]

As for the specific topics you mentioned, I've been told that my girls and I have some of the best gas management around, and we didn't take a class.

Do you mean gas management or air consumption? Two very different things.

Uh, what's the difference? I guess I meant air consumption.

This makes the point very eloquently in favor of a class... or at least a definition of terms.

I can have horrible air consumption, but dive very safely because of my excellent gas management planning. In addition, I can have great air consumption, and because of poor or deficient gas management planning get myself (and my buddy) into a very dangerous situation.

Gas management is planning my dive so that I KNOW have enough gas to get myself and a buddy safely to the surface in the event of a catastrophic failure. (mathmatic calcs based on sac rate & tank sizes & the nature of the dive)

Okay, I understand now. Or as a French hippie might say, je diggue We have both. Our gas management practice is to turn around when one of us hits halfway on the tank capacity, and though our tanks are rated at 2400, I usually set this mark at 1400-1500 just to be careful. Part of the reason this works for us is because we tend to move very slowly, and hence we don't cover a lot of ground or distance. In addition, the bottom half of our tank is normally consumed at safety stop depth or less, because we like to find fun stuff in the shallow water, too. I'm not sure what's the best way to explain it, but it works.

](*,)

But, on some dives having half of your tank left is not enough gas! This depends on the dive, who your buddy is, and the size of tank!

[Tom Nic]

Great thread, as usual...

Thanks to everyone for "playing nice" and having a great discussion!

Keep it coming...

[Pez7378]

Okay, I have 1 gallon of Gas in my go-kart. It gets 20mpg. I go from point A to point B which is 10 miles away. I tool around at point B before heading back to point A. Now it took me a half gallon to get to point B, But I consumed some gas while I was there, and occasionally on the way back to Point A I continue to take little side trips.........


Do I have enough Gas to get back to point A?

[BDub]

Okay, I have 1 gallon of Gas in my go-kart. It gets 20mpg. I go from point A to point B which is 10 miles away. I tool around at point B before heading back to point A. Now it took me a half gallon to get to point B, But I consumed some gas while I was there, and occasionally on the way back to Point A I continue to take little side trips.........


Do I have enough Gas to get back to point A?

I'd like to know why you're driving a go kart that only gets 20mpg. Talk about a hoover...

[Pez7378]

Okay, I have 1 gallon of Gas in my go-kart. It gets 20mpg. I go from point A to point B which is 10 miles away. I tool around at point B before heading back to point A. Now it took me a half gallon to get to point B, But I consumed some gas while I was there, and occasionally on the way back to Point A I continue to take little side trips.........


Do I have enough Gas to get back to point A?

I'd like to know why you're driving a go kart that only gets 20mpg. Talk about a hoover...

That's "working MPG" and I've got to account for Joe's Big

[Nwbrewer]

I think the really important part of Pez's analogy is if two of you go 10 miles, and get set to turn around, what if one of you for some reason loses all of your fuel? Now you have enough to get both of you 5 miles back, but not all the way. This can be bad if you're not in a good neighborhood....

Dave, I really do recommend reading up on some of the stuff lamont, Bdub, and Bob have put together. I think it will open your eyes to what gas management is all about. I know there are lots of folks around here that have been through this material and had the classic Homer Simpson D'Oh! response.


Jake

[RSdancey]

I think you should be able to get a rec Nitrox card by passing an on-line test. You should still have a card, because you should at least demonstrate some fundamental knowledge of oxygen toxicity & MOD before you do it, but I don't think it requires classroom instruction or "experience dives".

I did not take (and typically don't recommend) drysuit classes. I think you have to approach drysuit diving with some care though. We did our first 2 drysuit dives in less than 20fsw, and we did read the literature before diving so we knew what skills to practice. Your mileage may very - one of our friends took a class and felt much more comfortable in the suit after than before. I will note that the only time we've had a drysuit malfunction in our group the driver in question failed to resolve the emergency correctly. Luckily that diver had only been submerged about 30 seconds, and did not hold breath on the way to the surface, and was in less than 30fsw when the accident happened, so there were no repurcussions. (Inflator valve stuck on, overinflated suit, diver took a ride to the surface). (Note: the diver in this case attempted to do the one thing that her training had drilled into her to do in case of a "real emergency" - she tried to drop her weight belt. This was an instinctive reaction, but it just goes to show the power of "training" vs. theory.)

I did not take a class before diving doubles. The procedure seemed reasonably straightforward to me, and I treated it much like diving the drysuit. We went to a shallow area, and did a couple of "practice dives" to get the feel for the gear and how it affected bouyancy & trim. I still have yet to complete a successful S-Drill, but that is mostly due to the problems I am having getting my arms to stretch far enough over my head, which I attribute mostly to undergarment & drysuit fit issues. I can (and have) reached both posts & the isolater valve, and am confident that if I had to, I could get either to turn off (or use the isolater). It just wouldn't be pretty. The "technical" aspects of doubles diving (gear setup, pre-dive checks, etc.) are easy & straightforward if you pay attention to detail. I've never had a problem that couldn't be resolved, and wouldn't pay for a class.

I am pretty sure I could have done all the coursework for DIR-F without instruction. However, I'm obsessive about research and read as much as I could before the class, and built my own dive planning tables. I do not think most people are likely to take that much initiative when the alternative is being instructed in a formal setting. The direct instruction for the in-water portion of the class was invaluable, and I would not recommend that anyone think they can do it "solo" without competent instruction.

Knowing what I know now, I would not pay for the PADI AOW class I did take, but I would seek out someone like Bob to teach me AOW within the context of the course I've seen him outline which is vastly larger & more comprehensive than PADI's AOW requirements. I actually got a lot from my OW & AOW instructors, but they taught the class pretty much "to the letter", and I can't complain since that's what I paid for. But I know now that there's a lot more instruction that most people (and certainly I) need before being turned loose to dive OW in the PNW.

I would not take a class on how to wear a BP/W. I would not take a class on how to use a can light. I would not take a class on how to shoot an SMB. The fact that all this stuff, plus a lot more, is bundled into DIR-F just means that people who take DIR-F for buoyancy & trim skills, gas planning, team coherence, etc. get a bunch of other useful training "for free". By the time you're ready for DIR-F, taking all that stuff together just makes a lot of common sense.

I took 5th D's "intro to wreck" "workshop", from which I got neither a certification or any formal record of coursework, but I did get 2 days of attention from some hard core divers who explained (with great patience) the basics for how to lay a line, how to drop a shot line, and how to make a rational decision to not stick my body into an overhead environment without more training. The line skills alone were worth the money & time, and I doubt they could be well-learned by trail & error.

I would not do deco without a deco class. I'm on the fence about tech Nitrox; I've slung a 100% O2 bottle a couple of times, to get the feeling for diving with it, and I've sat at 20fsw and breathed off it, to go through the procedure for a gas switch. I have not done any bottle switching drills, but I'd like to try to see where they fall on the physical challenge level. I suspect that in reality, nobody who is ready to do it probably needs classwork for Tech Nitrox (i.e. understanding safety procedures for O2 over 40%), but you get it "for free" when you do deco procedures, so it's a moot point.

I wouldn't do overhead diving without extensive training & preparation.

I would pay for a really good class on drift diving in the Tacoma Narrows. I've done it 3 times, never yet lasted more than about 5 minutes before losing my buddy, and every time someone in our group has come up late (either didn't realize they lost their buddy, or spent too much time searching) which freaked us all out. I whacked my head on a rock when I turned to look behind me for my buddy, and I've been swept "up" more than 30fsw in just seconds by the current, which is an ascent rate that fears me. I've told people (and I'm serious) that if I ever do it again, I'm wearing a bike helmet. Of all the diving I've done, by far the drift diving has been the most dangerous.

RyanD

[airsix]

I'd like to know why you're driving a go kart that only gets 20mpg. Talk about a hoover...

Oh, they're out there all right.

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[Pez7378]

You'll never get the kind of mileage I'm talking about driving like that!