GPO taken at Redondo-where to put your outrage

[fmerkel]

I decided to open a new thread on this as it's related but not. There is a general cry of 'foul' going out over this incident. But consider this----

Redondo is not a protected area:
http://wdfw.wa.gov/fish/mpa/puget_sound/

GPO harversting is open:
http://wdfw.wa.gov/fish/shelfish/crabre ... regs.shtml

So-not necessarily good public relations but legal, completely legal. They could go take 2 every day from every open site itn the area if they wanted. Anyone can.

I had to sit and grind my teeth once while watching a guy take a GPO out of Day Island. I talked to him-Asian spouse with a large family gathering. This was a special treat. He didn't do it often.

I don't like it, but it's the current law. I'm personally appalled that there is fishing still permitted anywhere for anything, that includes divers with completely legal spear guns and open season. Yes, I know this is much more selective and eco-friendly than nets, traps, dynamite, etc. Every single stock of marine animal worldwide has been hammered by the relentless pursuit for 'dinner'. If you eat pretty much any fish, shellfish, or marine product you have little room for complaining in my book. This includes farmed products as they have their own particular problems. The only way to stop this is to dry up the demand. That's us, ALL of us.

So, if you really are concerned about marine life populations consider where to really put your energy and outrage for a better outcome. The Aquarium is absolutely on the side of conservation and marine protection. This is one GPO that was taken safely, and will be treated right. Yes, its no longer there for YOUR viewing but a whole lot more people WILL get to see it and maybe this will help out the interests of marine education and protection in the long run. The public at large is appallingly ignorant of the stage of the world oceans let alone Puget Sound. GPO week is VERY popular-thousands of extra visitors. There are lots of special exhibits and educational interactions for the public-go check it out. I've helped with these. Maybe consider it a small personal sacrifice for a much larger cause. Sometimes these kind of things need to happen.

Fritz

[Sounder]

I have no problem with them taking things. Just wish it hadn't been from a site so popular for new divers. Legal, yes... but perhaps not the best PR move.

[Grateful Diver]

I've just finished posting my thoughts on the other thread ... and I'll post some more in this context.

In no way do I want the Seattle Aquarium to perceive my response as an attack. It is not. I support their activities. But I think this was a bad decision. They had alternatives. They simply didn't consider them ... they chose to take the "easy" target, without considering the downside. At a minimum, it was a very bad public relations move.

There are two other resident octopus at Redondo ... both deeper and less visible to the public. Both out of range of OW certified divers. If they needed a sure-fire, quick-fix to the problem, either of those would've been a better choice, and a lot less of a loss to the diving community.

Sure, they CAN do what they did ... that that doesn't mean they SHOULD have done it. In no way do I think it was a good idea on their part, and it wasn't justified to my concern.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[Jaksonbrown]

II don't like it, but it's the current law. I'm personally appalled that there is fishing still permitted anywhere for anything, that includes divers with completely legal spear guns and open season. Yes, I know this is much more selective and eco-friendly than nets, traps, dynamite, etc. Every single stock of marine animal worldwide has been hammered by the relentless pursuit for 'dinner'.

Fritz

Ahhhh crap! Dang speargunners again! Here we go!

Back samson,... Back!!.... dooowwwnnn,...... there,.. good boy...be a good boy...

Whew... that was a close one!!!

[defied]

By no means is this meant to be a flame:
I'm a little confused by your post.

Are you angry at people who go in to the water for a valid hunt, and grab only what they use, or are you angry at the commercial industry?

If you're mad at the commercial industry, then I feel you, and it's a shame as well.

If you're mad at the guy who nabbed the octo you were going to jump in the water to snap photos of, that's confusing, and seems a little selfish to me.

Sure, I can understand you if they were hunting illegally.

Also, are you posing that someone give up eating seafood to allow for a better dive?

Once again, not trying to start a fight, just a little confused with where you were going with this thread.

Thanks!
D(B)

[Grateful Diver]

By no means is this meant to be a flame:
I'm a little confused by your post.

Are you angry at people who go in to the water for a valid hunt, and grab only what they use, or are you angry at the commercial industry?

If you're mad at the commercial industry, then I feel you, and it's a shame as well.

If you're mad at the guy who nabbed the octo you were going to jump in the water to snap photos of, that's confusing, and seems a little selfish to me.

Sure, I can understand you if they were hunting illegally.

Also, are you posing that someone give up eating seafood to allow for a better dive?

Once again, not trying to start a fight, just a little confused with where you were going with this thread.

Thanks!
D(B)

Well, the simple answer to your question is no ... I like a good seafood dinner as much as anyone. But there's a proper time and place for harvesting ... and removing an animal that's a major attraction at a popular dive site makes as much sense as going to a petting zoo and shooting a deer for venison. The hunter's short-term gain comes at the expense of a long-term loss for a lot of other people. And there are other alternatives that, while they might require a bit more effort, are also more considerate to everyone else who's sharing the same resources.

There is no reason why fishermen and divers cannot peacefully co-exist ... we've demonstrated that over the years at places where both have to share the same water. The key is mutual consideration and respect ... and sometimes that means putting a bit more effort into your part, so as not to encroach on theirs.

With a bit more forethought and effort, both could've been accommodated in this case.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[Sounder]

I just reread the subject of this thread and am wondering what its purpose is.

I don't think people were expressing "outrage" in the other thread, but rather, it was a constructive discussion with the community piecing together the facts and expressing opinions. I actually think the other thread is quite a good one... one of the better ones surrounding a potentially emotionally-charged subject.

So, is this thread really necessary? Or is it the same discussion again, with the potential for "outrage?"

I say let this thread die, be glad about the news from the Aquarium, give a huge thanks to those who shared the information they had, and let it go.

The Aquarium got the message and they're doing what they can to remedy it. What else needs to be said?

In other news, can SOMEONE please get some rain down here STAT?! I need to dive tonight and the "Sounder Mobile" does NOT do well in the snow.

[defied]

Well, the simple answer to your question is no ... I like a good seafood dinner as much as anyone. But there's a proper time and place for harvesting ... and removing an animal that's a major attraction at a popular dive site makes as much sense as going to a petting zoo and shooting a deer for venison. The hunter's short-term gain comes at the expense of a long-term loss for a lot of other people. And there are other alternatives that, while they might require a bit more effort, are also more considerate to everyone else who's sharing the same resources.

There is no reason why fishermen and divers cannot peacefully co-exist ... we've demonstrated that over the years at places where both have to share the same water. The key is mutual consideration and respect ... and sometimes that means putting a bit more effort into your part, so as not to encroach on theirs.

With a bit more forethought and effort, both could've been accommodated in this case.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

That's what I get for taking so long to post between work cycles. 0]

Sorry Bob, I understood you post, I was talking ab out the originators.
I didn't know there was another post going (If it's in Sea Critters, I def didn't see it recently).

I get your point though, but I do wonder, did the guy catching the Octo know it was a site?

But if this convo is happening somewhere else, and the original poster is jsut wanting to vent.... uh... okay... Maybe I should go catch up. 0]

Thanks for the info Bob!

D(B)

[fmerkel]

Hmm, apparently more confusing than I thought.

The community is upset a GPO was taken from a common site. Sure.
Energy is going into assimilating that incident. Sure.
The Aquarium now has an uncomfortable public incident to deal with. Sure.

I hoped to get across in the big picture that this is a relative non-issue with regard to marine life in general and GPO in this case. If you really are upset about the decline of critters to look at (this is just a small example) you should be clear where you might better expend that energy instead of being upset at the Aquarium. They definitely have gotten the message and I'm being kind of an advocate since I spend a lot of time with these folks and believe in their mission. I assure you that they are working hard, all day, everyday to further the goal of a better marine world.

The rest of it is kind of dithering. I have personal belief about eating seafood. I believe if you do, you are part of the problem. Some may not agree with that of course. They see my position as extreme. I think the situation in the marine environment is delicate and needs extreme intervention if anything is going to be done about it.

Fritz

[defied]

Oh, I get it!!! 0]

Thank you for the clarification.

So are you Vegan?

D(B)

[Sounder]

Hmm, apparently more confusing than I thought.

The community is upset a GPO was taken from a common site. Sure.
Energy is going into assimilating that incident. Sure.
The Aquarium now has an uncomfortable public incident to deal with. Sure.

I hoped to get across in the big picture that this is a relative non-issue with regard to marine life in general and GPO in this case. If you really are upset about the decline of critters to look at (this is just a small example) you should be clear where you might better expend that energy instead of being upset at the Aquarium. They definitely have gotten the message and I'm being kind of an advocate since I spend a lot of time with these folks and believe in their mission. I assure you that they are working hard, all day, everyday to further the goal of a better marine world.

The rest of it is kind of dithering. I have personal belief about eating seafood. I believe if you do, you are part of the problem. Some may not agree with that of course. They see my position as extreme. I think the situation in the marine environment is delicate and needs extreme intervention if anything is going to be done about it.

Fritz

I don't think people were going down the road of "the Aquarium is taking GPOs and the species will never recover!!" at all. All people wanted was for them to get the specimens from places where they're not enjoyed by divers... from places away from one where a new diver looking for inspiration to continue with their training would see one of these great critters.

Lets leave the personal seafood eat/don't-eat opinions out of this one... they don't apply.

From a PR and Marketing position, I'm surprised the Aquarium hasn't posted something yet. I think the Aquarium's participation in this conversation would be quite welcome and effective.

[CaptnJack]

I forwarded links of both Octo threads to the Aquarium DSO. Hopefully he or one of the responsible biologists can respond here directly.

[Sounder]

I forwarded links of both Octo threads to the Aquarium DSO. Hopefully he or one of the responsible biologists can respond here directly.

Thanks Richard!

[fmerkel]

Ya know, I'm feeling like maybe I stuck my "excessive" personal beliefs into an area that would have been better left alone. Kind of got things off topic too much. I'm gonna shut up. That's where zealotry will get you. Glad I at least didn't crap up the other thread too much.

Fritz

[CaptnJack]

I don't think people were going down the road of "the Aquarium is taking GPOs and the species will never recover!!" at all. All people wanted was for them to get the specimens from places where they're not enjoyed by divers... from places away from one where a new diver looking for inspiration to continue with their training would see one of these great critters.

Kinda like I have asked the hunter-gatherer types to fish in the low dive pressure areas, like Seiku. It just the right thing to do.

[Sounder]

Ya know, I'm feeling like maybe I stuck my "excessive" personal beliefs into an area that would have been better left alone. Kind of got things off topic too much. I'm gonna shut up. That's where zealotry will get you. Glad I at least didn't crap up the other thread too much.

Fritz

No worries. There are lots of different opinions, lifestyles, choices, religons, diving philosophies, and who knows what else here. I just didn't want this thread to turn into a Aquarium-bashing or an argument on the merits of who eats what.

I, personally, appreciate your perspective and appreciate your connecting with the Aquarium for us. We're fortunate to have so many Aquarium connections as part of NWDC.

FWIW, I'm still buying an annual pass to the Aquarium next year.

[Grateful Diver]

The sad thing is that if the fellow at the SA had simply let me know he was interested in capturing an octo for the upcoming events, I could've led him to a den or two right there in Elliot Bay, in places where divers don't generally go ... betchya there are a few folks on this board who could've done the same.

They should talk to us ... we'd not only support 'em, we could help 'em succeed.

And FWIW - I still support the Aquarium. I just don't want to see them taking octos from popular dive sites again.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[airsix]

I think sometimes we get confused and equate legal/illegal to right and wrong. They are NOT the same. And while the actions of the aquarium were legal, they were selfish. To use legality as an excuse is taking the moral low-road. It's using the law as an excuse to be both lazy and a bad neighbor.

For the record I don't have any issue with the aquarium collecting specimens, but I think it's extremely poor form to do it at a site where hundreds go to view the wildlife.

-Ben

[defied]

The sad thing is that if the fellow at the SA had simply let me know he was interested in capturing an octo for the upcoming events, I could've led him to a den or two right there in Elliot Bay, in places where divers don't generally go ... betchya there are a few folks on this board who could've done the same.

They should talk to us ... we'd not only support 'em, we could help 'em succeed.

And FWIW - I still support the Aquarium. I just don't want to see them taking octos from popular dive sites again.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

The "Taking" doesn't bother me. It's the elusive questions that lead them to the location to snatch them that does.

I think if they threw down a public notice saying "We're looking for GPO's in this area", that would allow for the divers to A) Get over it, or B)grab their Octo buddy, throw him in a tank until the Aquarium has left, and restore them to their habitat. 0]

But based off of the incidents as you expressed them. If that is true, that's bush league.


D(B)

[Sounder]

Just for the record... we'll make this a no-hijack-zone too.

Hopefully the SA will contribute to the conversation soon.

[Fishstiq]

I may have missed it, since both threads are pretty lengthy, but I don't think anyone on this board had a problem with the SA harvesting any animals. Everyone knows the SA's animals came from the wild. I think there are two basic complaints here, #1 where it was taken from and #2 the manner in which it was taken. Taking it from a popular dive site was a bad call, plain and simple, and I appreciate the SA "manning up" and taking responsability for that one. As far as the manner in which it was taken, I am refering to gathering information on false pretenses. Any way you cut it, that's chicken-s**t. If you are counting GPO's in geographic areas for science and population data, more power to you. If you are just making it easier for you to harvest them, get bent. I would say this to the SA the same as I would say it to any "hunter" who asked me what I know.

Now, for part 2.....

Fmerkel, I am absolutely not trying to start a flame war here. I do, however strongly disagree on your "if you eat seafood you are part of the problem" stance. I am generally a "live and let live" kinda guy, but since you stated this opinion twice in this thread, I feel inclined to respond. To me, it seems this stance is illogical and undefendable. Applying that same logic, anyone who drives a car of any kind, or rides in a vehicle of any kind, or basically has a carbon footprint over zero is part of the global warming problem. I'm sure some people would disagree with that. Anyone who has children is part of the population problem. I'm sure some people would disagree with that. Anyone who eats anything at McD's is contributing to deforestation and the destruction of the rainforests, and anyone who drinks a Coke is all for strip-mining. See what I'm getting at?

I eat seafood. I don't think that means anyone is entitled to wag an accusing finger at me and say I'm responsable for the state of our oceans.

Like I said, I'm not picking a fight. I just don't agree that things are as black-and-white as your stated opinions.

[fmerkel]

OK-fess up time. I pushed that one a bit. In retrospect this argument had no place associated with the Redondo incident. For that I beg the forum's grace.

I'm kind of a hypocrite, I'm part of the problem-absolutely. I drive to the dive site > part of the problem. Driving to the Aquarium > part of the problem. I do eat meat > part of the problem. I have a cat that eats seafood > part of the problem, and the problems that domestic cats actually create in both the land and marine environment is too numerous to to go into here. I'm alive > part of the problem. It gets pretty messy and everyone has to figure out where to draw their own line. Before I took up diving I had little information and no qualms about eating any form of fish. I LOVED fishing-it was my teen passion. Now, I just look at them and try to do what I can that is reasonable to sustain that environment.

If I'm at someone's house and they serve seafood, I eat it. I like the stuff. It isn't worth hassling with that much. I've just made a choice (mostly) to not make it part of my diet. It's my stance. My best buddy is crazy about seafood. He finds my 'information' tiring and doesn't want to hear it. Frankly most people don't want to hear it. Makes me feel a little frantic and I can get out of line. I think the message is worth spreading but I sure have to be careful about my delivery as that can make a huge difference and I admittedly did poorly here.

Yes, I think the SA blew this one. We'll see what they put out about it. I was try to shift a focus to a larger problem but that's not the discussion.

Children? What are those?

Am I hijacking my own thread at this point? I'm confused.

[defied]

Am I hijacking my own thread at this point? I'm confused.

I almost choked on my home made smoked salmon reading that.

D(B)

[Scubak]

You know...
I just gotta say,
Thanks for a great thread.
It has been thought provoking, informative and well discussed.
I have enjoyed the info that was passed from diver to diver...
I have enjoyed the information that was passed to the dive community in regards to harvesting and the Seattle Aquarium.
Thanks all...
Kirsten

[CaptnJack]

Everyone knows the SA's animals came from the wild.

Not 100% true. They breed and share breeding resources with a large number of sister aquaria for many fish and other animals. For instance, I know the Seattle is very successful in breeding wolfeels in captivity and then "trades" juveniles with other aquaria for species which are not indigenous to WA or they other aquaria are adept at breeding in captivity.