GPO taken at Redondo-where to put your outrage

[Fishstiq]

Everyone knows the SA's animals came from the wild.

Not 100% true. They breed and share breeding resources with a large number of sister aquaria for many fish and other animals. For instance, I know the Seattle is very successful in breeding wolfeels in captivity and then "trades" juveniles with other aquaria for species which are not indigenous to WA or they other aquaria are adept at breeding in captivity.

Fair enough. I know that the SA breeds some of it's animals, I was assuming (perhaps incorectly) that a majority of their subjects were/are not born in captivity. I don't know the ratio from one to another (wild to "domestic"), anyone care to chime in there?

[Nwbrewer]

With three concurrent threads, each of which expressing various degrees of outrage at what we believe (important that we don't know) the SA has done, and the number of SA volunteers that read this board, I'm actually surprised that somebody from the SA PR department has not responded. The SA asks for assistance from divers in the form of reporting sightings, etc., it seems like they'd want to respond to a perceived tarnishing of their image amongst an active segment of the diving community.

[Grateful Diver]

Someone from the SA has responded. When I logged onto my work computer this morning I found a response to my e-mail from Tim Carpenter. He has asked me to post it here.

Thanks for your letter of concern about the Giant Pacific Octopus collected recently at Redondo Beach. I would like to address your questions and hopefully put your concerns about the Seattle Aquarium’s motives and mission to rest.

It is our mission to “Inspire Conservation of Our Marine Environment.” We take this seriously, and to do so requires us to bring animals into our facility for those who do not SCUBA dive and who are not able to see them themselves. This represents over 800,000 people annually.

To do so, we are required by the State of Washington to file for an annual collection permit, and to report all animals collected from Washington waters. We are not permitted to import animals from Oregon, Canada, or other cold water habitats and hold them in our exhibitry. All of our animals are collected within the guidelines of this permit.

During the course of a given year, we commonly collect a number of Giant Pacific Octopuses (our permit allows up to 6 a year) for display. We normally do so at sites not frequented by recreational divers. We are sensitive to the needs of the recreational diver, as many of us dive on our free time as well, and avoid collecting animals from popular recreational sites. However, this is not always possible, due to time and financial constraints. Though we wish we had unlimited access to the Sound, we don’t, and have to make decisions based on more factors than the specific location of the animal in question.

Our recent trip to Redondo Beach was planned the week before, and the needs of the institution dictated that if we saw an acceptable specimen of GPO, we would collect it. We normally avoid taking charismatic megafauna such as octopuses, wolf eels, grunt sculpins, etc. from known recreational dive sites, and our institutional collection plan requires significant planning as to what we can actually bring back. Trips are planned out well in advance and balanced with the needs of the collection and the resources available. Tips from divers about animal locations, such as those reported during our annual octopus surveys, do indeed help us monitor the health of the Sound; however, we do not directly base collecting effort on these reports – that would be counter productive to our relationship and reliance on the dive community for this level of collaboration.

This animal is planned to be mated with a male we already have on site, and to be released back to her original site of collection. What may seem like a blow to the dive community is actually a story about the state of the Sound. We have seen few Giant Pacific Octopuses in our normal collecting spots, which led us to look at Redondo. This animal will get the opportunity to mate with our male, then go back to the wild, den up, and pass on her genes. This may be the best offer she gets this year.

Divers in our community are a tremendous resource for us and our mission. We have many divers in our volunteer program, and their passion for the marine environment is key to supporting our mission. The NWDiveclub list serve is a great forum for concerned divers, and we appreciate the discussion ensuing about this animal. If you would, please post this letter on the site, to keep the rest of the community informed of this response to your letter.

Again, thank you for your concern - I am happy to field any more questions you may have -

Tim

Tim Carpenter
Curator of Fish and Invertebrates
Seattle Aquarium


"Creating community through people, parks and programs." http://www.seattle.gov/parks

[Grateful Diver]

My response to Tim's e-mail ...

Hello Tim ...

Thanks for your explanation. I will post your response, and am indeed sympathetic to both the needs and requirements of your programs.

I would ask, however, in the future if you need to collect an animal, consider that divers may be able to provide you more specific information about where to collect one tha is both suitable to your needs and appropriate to ours. Had Chris told me he was looking to harvest this animal, I could have directed him to a more suitable specimen right there in Elliott Bay ... one that is in a place where divers don't normally go.

If you've been following the forum, you will know that there are some hard feelings over this ... and I believe those could have been avoided while still achieving the Aquarium's objectives. I'll do my best to smooth those over ... for the most part, these people are my friends and we spend a lot of time at dive sites together. But I believe the Aquarium needs to do a better job of not appearing to "compete" with divers by taking specimens from local dive sites. Talk to us, and we can avoid that necessity in the future.

Thanks again for responding to my e-mail ...

... Bob

[Grateful Diver]

... and while I was posting those, Tim responded again to me ...

Hi Bob -

Thanks for your understanding. Admittedly, this was not something we would like to repeat. Suffice to say, this is the first time we have resorted to taking a highly visible animal from a popular site in 30 years. Considering that we collect and release up to a couple octos a year, that's a pretty good track record. In normal operation, we have no problem finding the animals we need in other places. This year was different.

I have been following the forum, and the opinions of the local dive community are extremely important to all of us here. You and your cohorts are some of the best ambassadors we have to help showcase the importance of the marine environment. I hope this doesn't do permanent damage to our reputation. We do have 120+ volunteer divers who are committed to our mission and are a significant part of our ability to promote it. We need to keep that good will alive and keep our communication open and honest.

Thanks again for agreeing to post my response and, in advance, possibly smoothing things over. There were some pretty strong statements made on the forum (some of which could have been a little better informed, but oh well....), and it really made all of us sick to think that we made such a negative impact on those who we thought were our allies.

Cheers -

Tim

Tim Carpenter
Curator of Fish and Invertebrates
Seattle Aquarium


"Creating community through people, parks and programs." www.seattle.gov/parks

So here's my thoughts ... we and the folks at the Aquarium are like a family. We'll disagree ... even sometimes fight ... but in the end we have a common cause. Let's forgive, ask that they learn from the experience, and move on.

For myself, I'd like to provide any assistance possible to the Aquarium. I admire what they do, and I've enjoyed the times I've spent there with family and friends. They do good. Nobody's perfect ... and I think this was a mistake. Obviously I was upset about how it went down ... but I'm past that now. We all need to be.

Puget Sound is our playground ... and for many, the health of the Sound goes far beyond recreation. The SA is an important part of making people aware of what that means, and how much it affects all of our lives. We need a cooperative community to make a positive impact and educate people.

Let's work together with them to achieve that goal ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[Jaksonbrown]

Although I am against what was done here,.. I would still have liked to have seen a video of that process of grabbing a GPO. Gotta have bigger chonies than me to do that!

[OreCoastDiver]

Going back to one of Fritz's original points, if you really are concerned about marine life populations BUY A Fishing License! You don't have to use it, but fish and wildlife agencies are about the only people working to preserve and protect and conserve fish populations and fish habitats. In Washington and Oregon they are funded almost exclusively by license and tag sales. So put your money where your mouth is.

Aquariums are great. They do a great job educating and forming the opinions of the public, that's their job. But they are not out there actually protecting the fish and fish habitats.

Disclaimer, I work for ODFW and volunteer at an aquarium.

[DiverBob]

Thanks Bob for posting the responses from Tim at SA. He mentions that GPO's are hard to find this year. Are they? Every week on this site there are several dive reports with numerous GPO sighting and pictures to verify. I am still a fairly new diver and even I can usually locate on GPO at all the local south sound dive sites. The first time I saw a GPO in the sound was at Fox Island West Wall. It was a big deal for me! It occupied my thoughts and conversation for several days after. I am sure there are several instructors on this board that look forward to showing their students the GPO at Redondo. The lack of good judgment and common sense to remove such a highly visible animal from a popular dive site is very disappointing.

[wallyc72]

I think that GPO's SHOULD NOT BE TAKING FROM BUSY DIVE SITE'S! I don't have a problem with the Point Defiance Zoo or the Seattle Aquarium taking some for display. NOT EVERYONE is a diver or wants to be a diver. But if they do it again lets turn this one loose on them. " SEE PHOTO LINK " http://www.tacomascubacenter.com/index_ ... ge2834.jpg

[BASSMAN]

http://www.tacomascubacenter.com/index_ ... ge2834.jpg

Good one! I needed a good laugh after reading all this.

I think Both Bob (grateful Diver) and Tim (Curator of Fish and Invertebrates
Seattle Aquarium)
Have cleared this up the best way possible.

Thank you Bob and Tim!

Now lets go diving!

[defied]

LUNCH TIME!

[Sounder]

... and while I was posting those, Tim responded again to me ...

Hi Bob -

Thanks for your understanding. Admittedly, this was not something we would like to repeat. Suffice to say, this is the first time we have resorted to taking a highly visible animal from a popular site in 30 years. Considering that we collect and release up to a couple octos a year, that's a pretty good track record. In normal operation, we have no problem finding the animals we need in other places. This year was different.

I have been following the forum, and the opinions of the local dive community are extremely important to all of us here. You and your cohorts are some of the best ambassadors we have to help showcase the importance of the marine environment. I hope this doesn't do permanent damage to our reputation. We do have 120+ volunteer divers who are committed to our mission and are a significant part of our ability to promote it. We need to keep that good will alive and keep our communication open and honest.

Thanks again for agreeing to post my response and, in advance, possibly smoothing things over. There were some pretty strong statements made on the forum (some of which could have been a little better informed, but oh well....), and it really made all of us sick to think that we made such a negative impact on those who we thought were our allies.

Cheers -

Tim

Tim Carpenter
Curator of Fish and Invertebrates
Seattle Aquarium


"Creating community through people, parks and programs." http://www.seattle.gov/parks

To The Seattle Aquarium...

In the future if you need to know the location of a GPO, please just ask. I presently can tell you and/or lead you to the current guaranteed-location of 8 in Hood Canal, 12 in the South Sound, and 4 in the Middle-Sound. Of those 24 GPOs, all of whom are at recreational depths, only 2 of them are in locations that would cause concern for regular divers... unfortunately, one of these two was the GPO in question. Moreover, of those 24, only the 8 in Hood Canal require any kind of travel or boat to reach.

From the perspective of public relations, the claim of "'desperate times call for desperate measures' due to lack of information and financial strain" may not be the best angle for the Seattle Aquarium to take. It's difficult to believe that the Seattle Aquarium, with it's 120+ volunteers, with it's network of hundreds (thousands?) of divers, and with it's resources at least sufficient enough to drive to/from Redondo Beach to collect a GPO, was so financially strained and had such a lack of information on the locations of any GPOs within the local area, that they had to go to one of the most local and popular sites in Puget Sound for divers and take a popular and beloved GPO residing in 40-60fsw.

Perhaps instead, issue a simple apology stating something along the lines of "Upon reflection, we apologize for selecting the specimen from the location we did. The Seattle Aquarium will ensure it does not remove specimens from popular dive sites in the future."

Next time you're in the unique position of needing to find a GPO (or anything else) quickly, please ask us. Ask Bob, ask me, or ask a number of the other folks here you know. You're one email away from more help than you'd ever possibly need.

Example: If you needed an entire team of highly advanced divers for some mission TONIGHT, I personally could put together a team of incredibly skilled divers (even if that team required divers who FAR exceed my level of training and experience) along with surface support, boats, safety divers, photographers and videographers shooting in HD, and even someone to serve chowder and breadsticks, all in a matter of about 2 hours... and we'd have boats gassed up, tanks and deco bottles filled, teams ready, and be prepared for your briefing by go-time this evening.

We have the good fortune of an enormous pool of highly skilled divers in our area. You're one email or phone call away from any level of assistance up to and including "calling the Cavalry." Please reach-out and use us as a resource. We're here and we're ready, willing, and able to help.

[BASSMAN]

"

Next time you're in the unique position of needing to find a GPO (or anything else) quickly, please ask us. Ask Bob, ask me, or ask a number of the other folks here you know. You're one email away from more help than you'd ever possibly need.

Example: If you needed an entire team of highly advanced divers for some mission TONIGHT, I personally could put together a team of incredibly skilled divers (even if that team required divers who FAR exceed my level of training and experience) along with surface support, boats, safety divers, photographers and videographers shooting in HD, and even someone to serve chowder and breadsticks, all in a matter of about 2 hours... and we'd have boats gassed up, tanks and deco bottles filled, teams ready, and be prepared for your briefing by go-time this evening.

We have the good fortune of an enormous pool of highly skilled divers in our area. You're one email or phone call away from any level of assistance up to and including "calling the Cavalry." Please reach-out and use us as a resource. We're here and we're ready, willing, and able to help.

Well written Doug.

[airsix]

To me, the most telling of all is the fact that the aquarium diver encountered before the dive lied about their reason for being there. That says to me that they already knew it wasn't the right thing to be doing. Is it a case of "I'm sorry" or "I'm sorry I got caught"?

-Ben

[BigFameOne]

To me, the most telling of all is the fact that the aquarium diver encountered before the dive lied about their reason for being there. That says to me that they already knew it wasn't the right thing to be doing. Is it a case of "I'm sorry" or "I'm sorry I got caught"?

-Ben

BINGO Ben, pretty much my thoughts. Lying about it up front means they knew it was a wrong move.

[Grateful Diver]

To me, the most telling of all is the fact that the aquarium diver encountered before the dive lied about their reason for being there. That says to me that they already knew it wasn't the right thing to be doing. Is it a case of "I'm sorry" or "I'm sorry I got caught"?

-Ben

I don't think that really matters ... from my discussions with Tim Carpenter today I have to believe the SA has heard us, loud and clear.

We cannot "undo" what happened. But we can decide how to proceed from this point forward. In that respect, we can either burn bridges or build them ... I'd prefer the latter. We have opened a dialogue with someone of substance at the Aquarium. I have suggested to Tim that he join our forum, and consider taking up our offers for assistance in the future ... to avoid this type of situation occurring again. Looking for motives at this point serves no constructive end. Let's give them the benefit of the doubt and chalk it up to a lapse in judgment ... something we all do from time to time.

I think there will be a postscript to this story ... and if the hoped-for outcome actually takes place, it could be another Olive in the making. Let's keep a positive attitude (yanno, as divers that's always a good approach) and hope that when she is released, she'll decide that the boat will make a lovely den for her eggs. Think what an opportunity that would be for all of us.

Worst-case, she decides to go elsewhere. That could be one of the other boats in the area, or somewhere divers aren't shining lights in her eyes all the time. I can live with that. Octopus are short-lived creatures, and what we lose will be temporary at best ... and another octopus will eventually decide that den is a fine place to live.

Meantime we can have some potential longer-term benefit by opening up a dialogue with the Aquarium. Now that they've experienced our reaction, I don't think they'll be likely to do it again. So let's choose to make that a constructive dialogue and see if there's some way we can help them achieve their objectives without infringing on ours. I see that as a far better use of our time.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[fmerkel]

He mentions that GPO's are hard to find this year. Are they?

Some Aquarium diver realities. They don't dive in the 'real' world (Sound) as much as an active diver on this forum does-mostly way less. I dive in their environment all the time. I talk to them. I invite them on my dives. They seldom get to go on recreational dives (like 2x in 2 years for 1 diver for the club). When they do dive in the Sound, and that's rare also, it's generally a working dive (collection) and as Tim stated they seldom go to popular dive sites for the reasons Tim discussed.

GPO's move around. My first 2 years of diving there were NO GPO in Cove 2. Then 1, another, another....finally 5 were there. Since then it seems to fluctuate with periods of none to a couple. So, to find GPO you have to know a site, and you have to be current with info on that site. They also generally want a specimen of appropriate size for showing, longevity, and their housing ability.

Aquarium divers by the nature of their dive schedules and demands are seldom current on their own sites. They probably don't know where the GPO's are. Like I said, their first and easiest choice is to go off their own dock. I have not been down there but video makes it look like Cove 3. Might be pretty barren. These dives are primarily staff only. Volunteers are seldom used for collection dives, I've tried to get on them since it's really different and kind of fun. I've offered numerous times to bring in specimens since I was shown how to handle specimens on field collection. Probably lots of volunteers have. This kind of offer is graciously refused; rules, rules, and more rules. For me (anyone) to do that I have to be 'on the paperwork'-paperwork that is done a LONG time in advance usually, pre-approved, checked out, equipment safety validated and current, etc. It's a bureaucratic mess. I had no idea. On this side of the picture it seems easy. On the other side (and I'm sure I don't have all the info, I'm just describing some of it), it's pretty complicated.

I think Bob has offered up the most balanced perspective on this subject and agree with him. I'm sure this subject was heard loud and clear at the Aquarium. If I get any news worth sharing from staff on my next dive there I'll let folks know.

Whether Tim (or someone else) will have time to monitor and post in this forum is another matter. He (all the biologists) are pretty busy people. If it wasn't for volunteer staff that place would not run at all. They depend on it and for the volunteers it's a great place to help and learn.

Edit-just got an email from Tim Carpenter at the Aquarium. Posted it in the original thread.
http://www.nwdiveclub.com/viewtopic.php ... 247#p81247

Fritz

[Sounder]

Fritz, I understand the rules and liability issues... but your post saying that they "don't get out enough" sounds a bit pathetic to me. There is a simple fix for that problem, and it's still no excuse for what happened.

We're moving toward resolution here.

There have been some wonderful folks working diplomatically (behind the scenes) to form a solution that works for everyone. I must say, however, that continuing to try to explain or excuse what happened is as counter productive as any continued adverse comments. Excuses and explainations only serve to continue the debate instead of promoting a solution.

[defied]

Fritz, I understand the rules and liability issues... but your post saying that they "don't get out enough" sounds a bit pathetic to me. There is a simple fix for that problem, and it's still no excuse for what happened.

We're moving toward resolution here.

There have been some wonderful folks working diplomatically (behind the scenes) to form a solution that works for everyone. I must say, however, that continuing to try to explain or excuse what happened is as counter productive as any continued adverse comments. Excuses and explainations only serve to continue the debate instead of promoting a solution.

Quoted For Truth.

[carpent]

Hello all -

I finally got through my day and registered. Thanks to Bob and Fritz for passing on my earlier comments.

First off, I think some of you still need a little more short and to-the-point apology. Here it is. We do regret having taken such a well known animal, and will do all we can to make it right. We understand the impact and are sorry we stepped over the line. Unfortunately, there are forces at work here which cannot be expressed easily or completely that drive our activities. I would really like to leave it at that. The plan to release this octopus back to the collection site will hopefully help smooth this over. Also, the communications with divers previous to the collection were not made with nefarious intent, simply a different perspective. It is not our habit to completely open up our hand about what we are doing, for fear that the audience (who is unknown) may read it wrong. Though some passion has been expressed by the folks on this forum, please know that we are targets of people who express themselves in much more tangible ways - slashing tires, etc. There are some groups out there who disagree with everything we do - I would not want to come up from a dive and find someone from one of these groups with a slegdgehammer in their hand and an ultimatum to return the animals we just collected to the wild. For a chuckle, look up the recent PETA campaign named "Sea Kittens" - we never know who we're talking to in the field, and suffice to say we can't always reveal our activities and motives.

It is, and always has been, the policy at the Seattle Aquarium to avoid recreational sites for collection of animals. As a result, we do end up having to go to other, harder to reach areas. Having a network of instructors and avid folks who could give us a heads up will actually be a great end product of this fiasco. I appreciate the offers for help and will look into working with those who made the offers. That being said, one point needs to be made clear - we do have financial constraints - to send a dive team to Redondo is not that expensive, true. However, this was the last in a line of five dive trips dedicated to looking for an octopus, utilizing our collecting boat. These trips are not cheap nor easy to schedule - our collectors are also the folks who care for our exhibits, manage our dive operations on site, and make the place run. To pull them out of the facility five times in search of a needed animal is indeed very costly. This is not stated to ask for forgiveness or sympathy - it simply underscores the truth about our limited access to the Sound and our limited ability (relative to you all) to know exactly where things are.

Our volunteer diver program is one of the best in the country. As a result, we have set a very high bar for performance and commitment. This program costs us to administer. Our divers need to have solid dive skills to be sure, but also need to be able to commit to diving on site every two weeks. It is from this dedicated corps that we choose those who can collect with us in the field. Fritz is a great example. He has proven to us that he has the skills and the reliability for us to count on him for our further training and investment. As you all know, diving is not simply a sport, it is a way of life and a skill. We take this very seriously, and so does the City of Seattle, for which we all work. Liability for unpaid divers doing the Aquarium's work is high-risk. Accordingly, we can't simply deputize a group of divers for our purposes. I hope you can all see the logic here.

Finally, I do think this has opened up a lot of good dialogue. I hope some folks have learned a few things (of course we have at the Aquarium), and I think we may have gotten a little better in touch with the dive community, who, as I have said many times, is one of our largest supporters and vehicles for our mission. Thank you all for your passion about the animals in our stewardship. Anyone who would like to ask me more questions is welcome. I will continue to monitor this site, but you are welcome to email me directly - tim.carpenter@seattle.gov.

Thanks -

Tim Carpenter
Curator of Fish and Invertebrates
Seattle Aquarium

[cardiver]

Thanks for the explanation and welcome to the board!

[Sounder]

Here's an idea for a solution and perhaps we can save you some money by informally working together...

You need a GPO. We know where they are. Instead of incurring the expense of 5 fruitless trips, with employees away from their duties, boat expenses, traveling expenses, and incidentals, you could contact some of us who can put out the question to their networks. Then, with full transparency, we can tell you where the GPOs are that won't affect local diving knowing that you're going to give one a new home. We could even probably meet you there and guide you to the den, and then get out of the way as not to cause any liability issues.

As mentioned in another post, I can currently tell you where 24 mature GPOs are, of which all but 2 would be non-impactful on local divers, and especially new local divers. If you'd like to mate more than just the Redondo one, and want to know where other suitable candidates are, let us know. We're glad to help.

Finally, thanks for providing us such a great aquarium. I can't wait until my son is old enough to enjoy it - we'll be there every week.

[carpent]

Thanks to Sounder for the offers - I may be calling on you in the future.

Again, anyone who has more questions about the octopus issue, the Aquarium, or whatever, feel free to email me directly.

TC

[airsix]

Tim, thank you for your thoughtful comments. It would be easy to get defensive in light of our rantings. Thank you for being civil and diplomatic. Sounds like some good things may come of this.

I'd also like to take this opportunity to let the usual suspects know that plans to kidnap Richard in order to negotiate a prisoner exchange have been called off.

-Ben

[scottsax]

I stayed out of this fray and opted to go diving this weekend instead!

In the spirit of cooperation with the Aquarium, however, how does one report GPO sightings over the 3 day weekend? I saw 4 or 5 (I'm fuzzy on the exact number, because the first one was a doozy!) Their website was woefully lacking in reporting instructions...