OK Not dive related, Buying a bench lathe

[Dusty2]

When I retired from Boeing a few years back I said that it. Not more machine shop work! after several years in the Army as a machinist then 22 years in the Boeing tooling division I was totally burnt out.

Now the old itch to create is beginning to burn again. I keep finding things that make me say... If I only had a lathe I could make that better than what I see available. Sooooooo...

I'm looking for a lathe that will do what I want without breaking the bank. (which is getting ever lower due to the economy)
Having made tooling all those years I know the animal all to well. I have been looking at all the Chinese lathes out there mostly simply because I can't afford the far more costly quality machines . I though about the used route but I have found that they are all pretty much junk before anyone is willing to part with them or they want almost new prices for them.

So I am looking for supplemental info before I lay my money down for the proverbial pig in a poke. I am limited to around $2000.00 max and I want 10" turning capacity or larger. The big drawback is there is nowhere local that I have found to get a hands on look at most of what is out there in that range. There are several machines in that price range but all have shortcomings that make it hard to make a choice.

[camerone]

All the Chinese ones suck to some degree or another. I have a Chinese lathe (7x14) and a Chinese mill (9x24 table, gear head, probably should be a knee mill, but it isn't). If I had to do it over again, I'd probably have gone with a 9x lathe instead. I seem to always be working at the limits of the machine, which isn't fun, and half the time, I have to beg a friend of mine with a 16x60 do do the work for me.

As an ex-professional machinist, you would probably be better served with an older American made lathe. Either one is going to be a project for you. With an old American one, you'll be restoring something pretty well made, and worth something in the end. With a new Chinese one, you'll be investing the same amount of time in trying to true it up and get it to hold tolerances. It's a pain... out of the box, there's not a single made-in-China piece of machine tooling worth it's salt...on the other hand, they're very cheap, which means you can invest time instead of dollars in trying to get it to work at the level of precision you're used to.

Grizzly has a showroom in Bellingham. If you're serious about it, you ought to head up there. You can play with a bunch of them and decide which one you really want, based on features, size, etc. All the manufacturer's brands source from the same factories in China and basically differ only in paint color and name plate from one another. There's little to no quality difference between them.

I shouldn't have to tell you, but for others reading, don't forget to budget for tooling. Usually, a factor of 2x the price of the machine ($500 lathe means $1000 in tooling, $2000 lathe means $4000 tooling) seems to be adequate from my experience, although the mill has been more, thanks to the DRO I ordered to install

As an engineer, I love having a machine shop available to me to build/fix stuff, and I use it all the time. On the other hand, it's not cheap, but you already know that...

[airsix]

I'll echo what cameone said. Having used quality equipment you'll be frustrated with the Chinese bench-top units. I have the same lathe and milling machine as camerone. It took at least 10 hours to true the lathe. The milling machine wasn't as bad, but both machines lack rigidity. Working aluminum, brass, acetal are OK, but steel of any grade is torture. There is just so much flex to deal with. I'd watch for good used made in the USA. A nice thing about used is you will probably get some tooling with it. If you know how to use RSS you can set up a feed on Craigslist to watch for you. You also see some good ones at govt equipment auctions.

[airsix]

PS - Going to the Grizzly showroom is a great idea. Be sure to take a precision-ground rod and dial indicator though so you can see just how wonky they are "out of the box".

[Dusty2]

Thanks guys, Pretty much what I already have learned and yes I will for sure be aware of the quality difference but what I have seen thus far the term used machine pretty much equates to used up machine. The used lathes I have been seeing on craig's list and other places are pretty much scrap metal or boat anchors. It's scary the stuff that people post as used lathes. There are lots of shops looking for small lathes and most of the sales places have waiting lists for smaller lathes. I have found by looking on the net there are allot of support groups for the 9 X 20's and even the 7" lathes. And yes they definitely are less rigid than they should be but there are allot of fixes posted on the net that go a long way to making them work pretty well.

If I had my durthers I have a EE Monarch or a harding but the people that have them just keep on rebuilding them till they literally fall apart and never sell them.

I do agree that you should have bought the 9 X 20 or maybe larger. Those 7" machines are toys but they will work within their designed range.

[camerone]

The used lathes I have been seeing on craig's list and other places are pretty much scrap metal or boat anchors. It's scary the stuff that people post as used lathes.

Patience is a virtue. Also, use a feed aggregator to watch Craigslist in neighboring areas. If you expand your search locales out of Seattle to Spokane, Portland, NorCal, and Idaho, you get a lot more hits.

The nice thing about this is many people think they can start a small machine shop successfully. They fail miserably. Then the equipment gets sold off cheap. You just have to be patient. The mill took me eight months to find, but I got what I wanted

I do agree that you should have bought the 9 X 20 or maybe larger. Those 7" machines are toys but they will work within their designed range.

Yeah, the 7x is a little small, but it does the trick for most things. With a buddy and a big lathe, it's not too much of an issue, but if I move away from Seattle for a new job (a real possibility), it'll be a problem...

-c

[Dusty2]

I need help when it comes to things like feed aggregators and RSS and such. I can build a computer from scratch and handle most software with ease but I'm not versed on the inner workings of HTML

[kat]

a good resource, i am trying to remember some of the other sites, right now i am drawing a blank though...
http://www.locatoronline.com/Lathes.cfm

[airsix]

I've heard good things about Enco's lathes. Not top-shelf, but good quality for the prices.

12x36 for $2,700

[camerone]

Try http://www.searchtempest.com for cross-Craigslist searches. Lousy UI, but it does the trick. The problem with most of this gear is you have to do regional, only, or freight gets really expensive, really fast. My mill is ~750 lbs, without the stand, for instance, and most people would consider it to be a very small unit. I pity the movers who one day will come for my stuff

For some reason, I thought that Jet was sourcing from different Chinese factories for a while, now, but some of their stuff is even showing up to the same spec as the Enco / Rong Fu / Grizzly, etc. Oh, well...

I'd still try to run to Bellingham and look through the Grizzly showroom. If you can't find what you need there, they probably don't make it.

One other minor suggestion for you, Dusty. If you only find yourself using this thing once in a blue moon (but think it'd be nice to have anyway) you might try a 3-in-1 like a Shoptask or a Smithy. Usually, they're crap, and I would never recommend that to someone, but since you are on a very tight budget for this stuff, the Smithys have almost zero used resale value compared to new, and show up often because most people get frustrated with them really quickly. They're a compromise between the lathe and the mill, and not usually the best parts of either. However, they're _really_ compact, can do the lathe and milling work you need, albeit at the expense of rigidity and the need to break down and re-set up all the time as you transition operations. For the occasional one-off part or fix, though, one might just be the ticket if you don't care about how fast you turn the part around. After all, you're not in a production environment any more... taking a little longer isn't a crime. I've seen several of these go in the last few months for <$1k on CL, with few takers, and they can handle pretty reasonable work envelopes, albeit with some convoluted setups.

I can't tell whether as a machinist, it'd be enough to satisfy your cravings for the occasional fix, or something you'd take a sledgehammer to in short order

[airsix]

you might try a 3-in-1 like a Shoptask or a Smithy. Usually, they're crap, and I would never recommend that to someone...

A friend had one and it drove him crazy for all it's floppiness, but on the plus side the swing is HUGE. You could face brake rotors and smallish flywheels with it. That's not bad for a bench-top machine.

[Dusty2]

Try http://www.searchtempest.com

I can't tell whether as a machinist, it'd be enough to satisfy your cravings for the occasional fix, or something you'd take a sledgehammer to in short order

Probably the sledgehammer. LOL Thanks for the thought and I did look at them to start but I just found way to many shortcomings and drawbacks. I do already have a cheap mill drill machine. And yes as a tooling machinist I got really spoiled doing close tolerance work but those days are behind me now (thank god) This is what I'm considering right now but I may be looking at pie in the sky cause I don't know if I can come up with the bucks. Looks like about $2600 delivered. About twice what you would pay for a chinese 10" but WAY WAY more machine.

[4ster]

This is probably a long shot, do a search on South Bend lathes. They made high quality lathes for home workshops. Sometimes they can found at estate sales or maybe on eBay. I would love to find one.

Here is some background info:
http://www.wswells.com/

Steve

[Mattleycrue76]

I'm following this thread with interest, since I used to work in a machine shop for a while. Thing is, it was back when I lived in Austria so all the work was done using the metric system. I've never really been able to wrap my head around the imperial system. I wonder, do any of these units do both or is it pretty much imperial only?

[Dusty2]

It's usually either or on the metrics. All of these machines are manufactured in China or Taiwan so they are originally metric but when the go to American distributors they are set up imperial. They will cut metric threads but the dials are imperial.

[smike]

Yeah I have a 7x10, from Harbor Freight. I got it for like $450, and then have $200 into tools, and I can make some small stuff. I'm somewhat satisfied because I am not nor have I ever been a machinist, so I don't know what I am missing. There is some really aggravating aspects, like someone said, they were made metric and now imperial. So the cross slide scale is .04 for a full revolution, but it actually adjusts .0405, forgot the real amount, but it gets annoying, you have to sneak up on destination cuts.

There is one company that imports the Chinese lathes then re-works them so they are much tighter specs, fixes the threads so they are real imperial, and takes out the other annoyances. They were not too much more that the Chinese lathes themselves.

+1 for grizzly tools, even if you don't buy anything from them they are awfully fun to visit, and you will see really quick what the tools can rack up to. Unfortunately, I don't need a lathe that bad...

At times I have seen American / British lathes on craigs, for really good prices, but usually I see junk.

[Waynne Fowler]

you would probably be better served with an older American made lathe. Either one is going to be a project for you. With an old American one, you'll be restoring something pretty well made, and worth something in the end. With a new Chinese one, you'll be investing the same amount of time in trying to true it up and get it to hold tolerances. It's a pain... out of the box, there's not a single made-in-China piece of machine tooling worth it's salt...on the other hand, they're very cheap, which means you can invest time instead of dollars in trying to get it to work at the level of precision you're used to.

Probably some of the best advice I've seen... the american made will outlive the import at least 3x's (yip thats a wag but I bet it's not far off the mark and may be giving the import credit it's not due in my limited experience with these kinds of things).

good luck and be sure to post an update of what you came up with.... new toys are sooo damn fun!

[Dusty2]

The sad fact is that not only will they last 3 times as long but they cost 3 times as much in very well used condition as the others do new. parts for old lathes are around but they want an arm and a leg for them. In fact some of the old south bends and atlas are worth far mor for parts than they are whole. I figure at 66 I'm within the survival window for the mid level offshore stuff and I really don't care what my survivors can get for it!.

I'm eager for a new toy but not frothing at the bit yet. I am not pulling the trigger yet but I want to find something before the money get absorbed buy something mundane like car repairs or something.

[camerone]

There is one company that imports the Chinese lathes then re-works them so they are much tighter specs, fixes the threads so they are real imperial, and takes out the other annoyances. They were not too much more that the Chinese lathes themselves.

Micro-Mark, but they only do the 7x14 lathe, and the Sieg X2 mill. The lathe is nice (albeit smaller than Dusty wants), but the mill is "stay away from." Unfortunately, their model uses a Morse Taper (3) headstock, while just about all the real tooling (read "inexpensive" or "surplus") out there is R-8 taper. It's cheaper to buy the X2 from HF or Grizzly and retrofit the imperial screws, so that you have the R8 taper, and use the extra money to buy tooling MT-3 on a lathe = good, but on a mill, not so much.

Good luck - do let us know what you find. Hang out and watch - there's usually at least one small machine shop a month that I see liquidated on Craigslist.

[smike]

If you do get a little import, there is a really nice web site for all the little tools that go along with it. Most of it is decent quality. littlemachineshop As I am neophyte, it had lots of good suggestions on how to true up the lathe, and there are references to other sites that show how DIY DROs and stuff too.

[Dusty2]

If you do get a little import, there is a really nice web site for all the little tools that go along with it. Most of it is decent quality. littlemachineshop As I am neophyte, it had lots of good suggestions on how to true up the lathe, and there are references to other sites that show how DIY DROs and stuff too.

Thanks, I have been viewing allot of those sites and I amazed at how much info there is out there for those cheap little 7X10's and 9 X 20's and the extremes people go to to mod them. I saw one guy that had a HF 9 X 20 that he turned into a full NC. Several hundred hours and 3 or 4 times the cost of the original lathe but it works surprisingly well on small stuff. There are allot of enterprising people out there and the web is awesome for getting their ideas out.

The one scary part is all the how to machining vids posted by people who obviously don't have any REAL machining experiance. It's downright scary watching some of them. Kinda like someone off the street teaching an open water class. ewwww!

[smike]

people who obviously don't have any REAL machining experiance. It's downright scary watching some of them. Kinda like someone off the street teaching an open water class. ewwww!

I haven't watched many videos - but I already know I have to SLOW way down when I am at the machine, take an extra think, I am new at machining, and when I don't take it super slow I end up hurting something, banged fingers, ruined parts, and see where it could be worse.. I wish I had real training, I expect that would be a much larger investment than the lathe itself. Lately I have done a number of things (non-scuba related) with plastic pipe, and I learned real quick the value of inserting something inside to support the pipe while in the chuck, just one of those things I suppose you learn with experience.

I also started recently using a dial gauge to measure cross slide / carriage position. Works for a poor mans RO, I am thinking of ways I could mount digital calipers as a DRO. Haven't quite figured out any easy way to mount the thing though, where it isn't in the way, or, is easy to remove when it would be in the way.

It might just be a toy, but I like to play. Sometimes I actually accomplish things too.

[Dusty2]

DAMN!!! :angry: :angry: :angry:

Found it then lost it!

Found an awesome Jet bdb-1340a today that was just what I am looking for. A REAL lathe not a toy. It weighs in at 1200 LBS It was brand new but damaged in shipment so the new owner didn't accept it. The damage was purely cosmetic and easily cleaned up if you felt it had to look new and the price was about 1/2 what it costs new. It is a 13" X 40" full gear head lathe. No change gears, no belts to change to change speeds and full auto feeds in ALL directions and a camlock chuck so no screw on or bolt on. The quality and the build are very good and it is ready to run out of the box without allot of things that need fixing or redoing.

I called this morning and they said it was there and ready to go out the door if I wanted it. I said I'd be there right after lunch to check it out. So I get myself together and drive the 25 miles to Auburn and arrive at 1pm ready to pull the trigger if it looked right. I walk in and start talking to one of the crew about the lathe with a sparkle in my eye and drool on my lips knowing that this was what I had been searching for at a price I could afford when one of the other guys walks up and sez I just sold that lathe 40 minutes ago. What a total bombshell!


The good news after I picked my chin up off the floor is that they said that they get them in all the time and they would put me on the list for the next one they get. At least now I know what I want and know I can get it at a price I can afford and do so locally so the wait begins. For those that might be interested in the specs http://cgi.ebay.com/JET-BELT-DRIVE-BENC ... 5886c99ef0

Here is what I chose.

[Mattleycrue76]

Wow! looks real nice. So are you saying they can be had for close to half of that Ebay price? Or is that the price taking the cosmetic damage into account?

[Dusty2]

Actually that one is one model down from the one I am getting. The one I want is a full gear head lathe and that one is a belt drive. The one below is the right one. That is the wholesale price for a blem or bump and dent as they say in the appliance world. One that is new and perfectly functional but got dinged up in transit. They can't repair it and sell it as new so the factory sells it wholesale. The one I saw was fine but some of the paint work was damaged and the cabinet was dented and a protective cover on one of the safety switches was missing but they had already ordered replacement parts and nothing functional was damaged. It would have been good to go as is or you could put in a couple hours of time and smoothed out the blemishes if you couldn't live with the missing paint.

The only caveat is you have to pick it up or arrange transport at your expence and get into your shop. They will only put it in your truck or trailer with their fork lift and your on your own and it weights in at 1200 lbs