Diver accident at Redondo 5-15

[LCF]

I just don't have that much experience, but when I've been monitoring students for Peter, I try to hover directly above them and maybe a tiny bit behind. That way, if they try to bolt or lose buoyancy control, I'm between them and the surface, and if I start to lose sight of them in silt, a strong exhale should bring me down until I can feel and grab them. So far, that's worked pretty well. I haven't had to do it in the 2 to 3 foot viz we've had recently, though. Redondo was so bad the last time I dove there, I couldn't imagine trying to help with a class, because I couldn't see a student and the instructor at the same time. Maybe it's gotten a bit better.

[rjarnold]

I just don't have that much experience, but when I've been monitoring students for Peter, I try to hover directly above them and maybe a tiny bit behind. That way, if they try to bolt or lose buoyancy control, I'm between them and the surface, and if I start to lose sight of them in silt, a strong exhale should bring me down until I can feel and grab them. So far, that's worked pretty well. I haven't had to do it in the 2 to 3 foot viz we've had recently, though. Redondo was so bad the last time I dove there, I couldn't imagine trying to help with a class, because I couldn't see a student and the instructor at the same time. Maybe it's gotten a bit better.

What do you do if they bolt for the surface?

[dwashbur]

(And who the hell throws rocks at their students?!? Where did that come from?)

I've seen it at Redondo. There is a group from out of the area that dives there for their cert dives. I've personally seen rock throwing as well as verbal abuse of the students. Not necessary as part of learning SCUBA in my opinion.

Dave

Wouldn't be a certain group from Idaho by any chance ??? I've seen some pretty weird behavior from that gang at other dive sites (Keystone and Sund Rock) ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I'd be interested to know who this group from Idaho is, being from Idaho myself and knowing most of the people who frequent the two dive shops in Boise...I certainly don't know anybody from over that way who would do such things. If you don't want to ID them publicly, I'd be grateful for a PM.

[dwashbur]

What do you do if they bolt for the surface?

I came close to doing just that on our third OW dive at Blue Lake. I had had an incident the day before and nearly lost my nerve, but went ahead. My wife was my buddy, but I was having serious psych-out trouble. I got in the instructor's face and told him I needed to surface NOW. I did this something like three times. He made me stay put, even held my reg in my mouth for a few seconds just in case, then dragged both of us over to another instructor to make sure someone was looking after my wife while he took me up. He also held on to my leg to make sure I didn't cork too fast in my semi-panicked condition.

That doesn't really answer the question of what I would do, but it gives one possibility that has actually been done, for what it's worth.

[Grateful Diver]

I just don't have that much experience, but when I've been monitoring students for Peter, I try to hover directly above them and maybe a tiny bit behind. That way, if they try to bolt or lose buoyancy control, I'm between them and the surface, and if I start to lose sight of them in silt, a strong exhale should bring me down until I can feel and grab them. So far, that's worked pretty well. I haven't had to do it in the 2 to 3 foot viz we've had recently, though. Redondo was so bad the last time I dove there, I couldn't imagine trying to help with a class, because I couldn't see a student and the instructor at the same time. Maybe it's gotten a bit better.

What do you do if they bolt for the surface?

It depends ... but the first thing you do is look to assure they're breathing. If you don't see exhalation bubbles, you do everything in your power to prevent them from surfacing, because the chances of them embolizing on the way up are high. I once had to hold a student down until he finally exhaled ... then get the heck outta Dodge in a hurry, because he'd rejected his regulator and wouldn't take mine. Dude damn near undressed us both by the time we surfaced.

The rest is really situational. If they're rational, you make physical contact and surface with them ... if possible and warranted, slowing them down along the way. If they're irrational (panicked) you follow them up ... but attempting to make contact may only exacerbate an already bad situation.

The key thing is watching for signs of impending panic, and taking steps to alleviate it before it happens. You can usually ... but not always ... tell when a student's working themselves into that state, their breathing pattern changes and they will often be having a lot more difficulties than normal maintaining any semblance of buoyancy or positional control. Don't wait for them to act ... be proactive at getting a hand on the student and making eye contact. Usually that's enough to keep the bolting from happening. Let them know you're there and take them up right away if there's any doubt in your mind as to their ability to calm down and continue with the lesson.

Instructors are supposed to be proactive ... it's a huge part of maintaining control of the class.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[rjarnold]

I just don't have that much experience, but when I've been monitoring students for Peter, I try to hover directly above them and maybe a tiny bit behind. That way, if they try to bolt or lose buoyancy control, I'm between them and the surface, and if I start to lose sight of them in silt, a strong exhale should bring me down until I can feel and grab them. So far, that's worked pretty well. I haven't had to do it in the 2 to 3 foot viz we've had recently, though. Redondo was so bad the last time I dove there, I couldn't imagine trying to help with a class, because I couldn't see a student and the instructor at the same time. Maybe it's gotten a bit better.

What do you do if they bolt for the surface?

It depends ... but the first thing you do is look to assure they're breathing. If you don't see exhalation bubbles, you do everything in your power to prevent them from surfacing, because the chances of them embolizing on the way up are high. I once had to hold a student down until he finally exhaled ... then get the heck outta Dodge in a hurry, because he'd rejected his regulator and wouldn't take mine. Dude damn near undressed us both by the time we surfaced.

The rest is really situational. If they're rational, you make physical contact and surface with them ... if possible and warranted, slowing them down along the way. If they're irrational (panicked) you follow them up ... but attempting to make contact may only exacerbate an already bad situation.

The key thing is watching for signs of impending panic, and taking steps to alleviate it before it happens. You can usually ... but not always ... tell when a student's working themselves into that state, their breathing pattern changes and they will often be having a lot more difficulties than normal maintaining any semblance of buoyancy or positional control. Don't wait for them to act ... be proactive at getting a hand on the student and making eye contact. Usually that's enough to keep the bolting from happening. Let them know you're there and take them up right away if there's any doubt in your mind as to their ability to calm down and continue with the lesson.

Instructors are supposed to be proactive ... it's a huge part of maintaining control of the class.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I'm pretty sure I would have been one of those terrible students that would have undressed you if you had tried to hold me down. Seeing as I thought water was coming in through my reg after I'd taken off my mask (nobody had told me that the cold water might make you breath in unintentionally, and I think my nose was frozen enough to not realize that water was coming in that way, not through my reg), there was no way I could breath with water already getting into my lungs. The worst part was doing it three times without any explanation as to what the problem might actually be.

[Mongodives]

Is it a common practice locally to use DM candidates or even non-pro , non-insured diver's to assist/monitor students to increase ratio's.
Or did I misunderstand what others have posted?

[Grateful Diver]

I'm pretty sure I would have been one of those terrible students that would have undressed you if you had tried to hold me down. Seeing as I thought water was coming in through my reg after I'd taken off my mask (nobody had told me that the cold water might make you breath in unintentionally, and I think my nose was frozen enough to not realize that water was coming in that way, not through my reg), there was no way I could breath with water already getting into my lungs. The worst part was doing it three times without any explanation as to what the problem might actually be.

That is exactly what caused my student to panic ... even though he had done the exercise perfectly well in the pool, doing it in cold water often triggers the reflex that tricks your brain into thinking that there's water coming in through your regulator .. or in your case, through your nose (trust me, you'd KNOW if that happened no matter how cold the water is).

I doubt you had actually breathed any water ... but your brain was telling you that you had, and was therefore inhibiting your ability to breathe. It's literally a case of "all in your mind" ... but the physical reality is that if you bolt, you'd better exhale on the way up or you'll really mess yourself up bad.

Explanations can help you understand what's going on ... but they won't prevent the reflex action from happening. You've gotta spend some time "rewiring" your brain. We ended up spending the next couple hours in chest-deep water getting him used to breathing through a reg without a mask on ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[Grateful Diver]

Is it a common practice locally to use DM candidates or even non-pro , non-insured diver's to assist/monitor students to increase ratio's.
Or did I misunderstand what others have posted?

Using a non-pro, non-insured diver in that manner is against agency standards ... regardless of which agency or how experienced the diver is. Only DM's, AI's, and instructors can be used to reduce the student to instructor ratio ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[rjarnold]

I'm pretty sure I would have been one of those terrible students that would have undressed you if you had tried to hold me down. Seeing as I thought water was coming in through my reg after I'd taken off my mask (nobody had told me that the cold water might make you breath in unintentionally, and I think my nose was frozen enough to not realize that water was coming in that way, not through my reg), there was no way I could breath with water already getting into my lungs. The worst part was doing it three times without any explanation as to what the problem might actually be.

That is exactly what caused my student to panic ... even though he had done the exercise perfectly well in the pool, doing it in cold water often triggers the reflex that tricks your brain into thinking that there's water coming in through your regulator .. or in your case, through your nose (trust me, you'd KNOW if that happened no matter how cold the water is).

I doubt you had actually breathed any water ... but your brain was telling you that you had, and was therefore inhibiting your ability to breathe. It's literally a case of "all in your mind" ... but the physical reality is that if you bolt, you'd better exhale on the way up or you'll really mess yourself up bad.

Explanations can help you understand what's going on ... but they won't prevent the reflex action from happening. You've gotta spend some time "rewiring" your brain. We ended up spending the next couple hours in chest-deep water getting him used to breathing through a reg without a mask on ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

That's what Greg and I had to do up here - after I eventually and quite reluctantly went and did my OW years later in Florida. I was great in the pool too... just something about that cold water.

[LCF]

When I have assisted with classes as a DMC, my presence has not been counted in figuring the staff to student ratio.

[CaptnJack]

Is it a common practice locally to use DM candidates or even non-pro , non-insured diver's to assist/monitor students to increase ratio's.
Or did I misunderstand what others have posted?

Using a non-pro, non-insured diver in that manner is against agency standards ... regardless of which agency or how experienced the diver is. Only DM's, AI's, and instructors can be used to reduce the student to instructor ratio ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

If the class is so big that a DM or AI is required to get the ratios in line with (some agency) standards, its too big for around here in the first place. I have assisted (videoed, been a buddy for the day, etc) various classes over the years and never was my presence necessary to meet NAUI or UTD standards.

[ljjames]

if a student bolts, i do the same as bob, theoretically with the addition of a punch in the stomach if i don't see any bubbles coming out and we are unavoidably heading up quickly. This comes from an old-skool NAUI instructor that was my mentor. He'd tell everyone that at the beginning of the pool session. "if you try to bolt, this is what i will do....<holding them down, punch in stomach to make them exhale, etc...> I will do everything in my power to protect you from yourself, as will my staff"

and as bob said, the most important thing is prevention.

[ArcticDiver]

I'm trully interested in what the "solution" is for incidents such as the one that happened and what LCF and ljjames described in the current vis conditions, if its something other than doing 1:1.

It's just not that hard. When visibility is bad enough to make maintaining control of your students difficult, you throw a thumb, regroup on the surface and say "not today". I've done is a few times ... even with some folks who were students of mine who are probably reading this thread ... and I rarely had more than a 2:1 ratio in my classes.

You simply do not compromise the safety of your students ... ever ... not for any reason.

Part of being an instructor is knowing how to use good judgment. And besides, there's a lesson there for the students too ... which is knowing when to say "there's another day to dive". We're supposed to be teaching them that ... and leading by example is a great method for teaching it.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

AMEN and AMEN

When I was teaching people how to fly airplanes I always considered my primary responsibility was to keep the students alive while they learned. Too bad more instructors don't have your attitude.

[Agent 47]

"if you try to bolt, this is what i will do....<holding them down, punch in stomach to make them exhale, etc...> I will do everything in my power to protect you from yourself, as will my staff"

.

Thats cirtianly a good way to get the point across.