Regulator Advice

[jturner]

I've been trying to read as much as I can about regulators on Scubaboard and any other site I can find and the one piece of advice I see time and again is that they all work just fine and they are so similar it doesn't really matter. I've also heard this from sales people and am told that reviews typically are just people saying they like whatever they have as it works fine for them. So if you are looking for a sealed, balanced, din regulator why would you not just look for the cheapest and spend your saved money on the next scuba item you need? I know there has to be something I am missing here... Why would I choose a Scubapro MK25/S600 ($729) or an Apek XTX200 ($399 closeout) over say a HOG D1 ($179) or Hollis DC3/212 ($200 closeout)? Is it just brand loyalty? Is there some feature that certain nicer ones have that make them more desirable? I'm not trying to start a brand war and am hoping for advice on what to look for or research next.

Thanks in advance.

[thefeve]

Great question! I don't know either.... (I dive hogs!)

[CaptnJack]

Probably the biggest issue is, can you get parts and service? If you travel, can you get parts and service if it goes kapooy while on vacation? E.g. Some brands (Dacor/Mares) come to mind once had a wide distribution network but no more. You can't get Dacor parts at all anymore, and Mares parts & service is common in some places (Italy) but rare in others (Mexico).

Some of the best regulators ever made are out of production, yet parts are widely available and they are pretty inexpensive on the used market. A scubapro mk20/G250 (the old metal version) for $250 on ebay is an excellent reg well worth servicing and diving (to me that is). I'd much rather have that than a Hollis since I have no idea if Hollis parts and service will be available in 5 years - the Mk20/G250 parts and service have been available for decades and are far more likely to continue to be available. And I know they are available in FL and MX, two places I visit.

[BillZ]

To compare apples to apples, the Hog D1 would actually be $312
D1 first stage - $179
D1 Second Stage - $109
LP Hose - $24

I don't know about the Hollis, but I own a Hog, SP Mk25/S600 and an Apex (I have the XTX100).

Each one has it's benefits. IMHO the Apex breathes about the best - but it's so close among the others it's really difficult to tell. I like the rotating LP turret on the MK25, its great for hose routing on my doubles. The Hog is my newest reg - I like the fact that it's cheap and that I could take the class and service it myself. For that reason alone in the future I may sell off my other regs and standardize on Hog. The only slight negative I've seen with the Hog is that the first stage is really heavy.

[CaptnJack]

The only slight negative I've seen with the Hog is that the first stage is really heavy.

I have not weighed mine. But I have noticed amongst my friends and aquaintences who have HOGs that they don't fail slowly with creep. They are working fine then bang, massive HP seat failure. Sample size is small and probably biased anyway. Still interesting compared to say my MK20/S600 which always develops a small leak around the spring opening when it needs service.

[jturner]

Thank you for the comments. I'm glad to see at least so far there isn't a glaring thing that I am missing.

CaptnJack, The service point I can definitely see as you want to know it is around years from now. I didn't think about it so much from the travel perspective but I guess that could be partially negated by buying a service kit or two and storing it. So that's indeed something to consider. Especially for used gear, personally I'm a bit hesitant to buy used but that's just a personal choice/problem.

BillZ, as for the price. I just did a quick google search to come up with the prices and DGX has a HOG D1 first, second, and hose for $179 (http://www.divegearexpress.com/regulators/hogreg.shtml). For full disclosure, the Scubapro was from Leisure Pro and the other two prices were diveaddicts closeouts. The Hollis I added as that is what our OW class used and the other three are ones I keep seeing mentioned as top choices, they also seemed to be a nice spread over the price range. Thank you for the insights as you actually own multiple of these. I also really like the idea that I can learn to service Hogs in the long run.

[CaptnJack]

CaptnJack, The service point I can definitely see as you want to know it is around years from now. I didn't think about it so much from the travel perspective but I guess that could be partially negated by buying a service kit or two and storing it. So that's indeed something to consider. Especially for used gear, personally I'm a bit hesitant to buy used but that's just a personal choice/problem.

Depending on the company it can be easy to impossible to buy service kits "retail". Sometimes you get just buy them, sometimes you can get them grey market, sometimes its essentially impossible. All regs require tools to service them (even those where tools are minimal, a vise is super handy). Given airline weight and baggage limits, TSA and other countries sometimes random concerns about tools and such things, the rarity of reg issues, etc, I'd say bringing along parts and tools to service a reg is pretty rare. If you have a big trip coming up its much more common to get your regs serviced a month before, do a couple of local test dives, and then take the freshly overhauled yet tested regs on your vacation of a lifetime.

[CaptnJack]

PS companies offer various service incentives and "free parts fo life" type deals. When available, the most common is that regular service parts are free as long as the reg is serviced annually by a tech at an affiliated dealer. That service record is rigorously tracked and if you miss the annual service by a few months the "free parts" deal goes away. Internet purchases may or may not be eligible for these type of warranties (when available). Scubapro and Apeks, Aqualung are the brands most commonly associated with these types of warranties nowadays. HOG and Dive rite don't do anything like this. Not sure about Hollis.

[GearHead]

I also own both HOG and ScubaPro regs. Three mk25, one mk17, three G250v, one S600, one A700 from ScubaPro and two D1, two D2 1st stages, and four D1 second stages from HOG. I even mix and match 1st and 2nd stages between the brands with no issues.

The rig I dive most often is a mk17 w/ A700 primary & D1 backup. Next is my side mount setup with mk25 + G250v and mk25 + D1, taking advantage of the swivel turrets. The best breathing combo is the mk17 + A700, followed closely by the mk25 + G250v. The mk25 + D1 is also excellent. The S600 doesn't breath quite as well as the others, but isn't bad.

I like the size of the HOG D1 for a bungied backup. I've assigned the two HOG D2 1st stages (w/ G250v) for a doubles rig due to lower weight. I'm keeping my mk25 + S600 rig for tropical water with yoke valves. I use the other D1 1st and 2nd stages for my pony and deco bottles since they work well with stage rigging.

The HOG internals are the same as Apex according to my LDS technician. ScubaPro parts are available pretty much everywhere, and I think Apex are easy to find as well. Hope this helps. Give it time, and you may collect a few reg sets yourself.

[BillZ]

BillZ, as for the price. I just did a quick google search to come up with the prices and DGX has a HOG D1 first, second, and hose for $179 (http://www.divegearexpress.com/regulators/hogreg.shtml). For full disclosure, the Scubapro was from Leisure Pro and the other two prices were diveaddicts closeouts. The Hollis I added as that is what our OW class used and the other three are ones I keep seeing mentioned as top choices, they also seemed to be a nice spread over the price range. Thank you for the insights as you actually own multiple of these. I also really like the idea that I can learn to service Hogs in the long run.

Gotcha, I got my numbers based on DRIS. You would need to add the cold water kit to that.

[jturner]

I also own both HOG and ScubaPro regs. Three mk25, one mk17, three G250v, one S600, one A700 from ScubaPro and two D1, two D2 1st stages, and four D1 second stages from HOG. I even mix and match 1st and 2nd stages between the brands with no issues.

The rig I dive most often is a mk17 w/ A700 primary & D1 backup. Next is my side mount setup with mk25 + G250v and mk25 + D1, taking advantage of the swivel turrets. The best breathing combo is the mk17 + A700, followed closely by the mk25 + G250v. The mk25 + D1 is also excellent. The S600 doesn't breath quite as well as the others, but isn't bad.

I like the size of the HOG D1 for a bungied backup. I've assigned the two HOG D2 1st stages (w/ G250v) for a doubles rig due to lower weight. I'm keeping my mk25 + S600 rig for tropical water with yoke valves. I use the other D1 1st and 2nd stages for my pony and deco bottles since they work well with stage rigging.

The HOG internals are the same as Apex according to my LDS technician. ScubaPro parts are available pretty much everywhere, and I think Apex are easy to find as well. Hope this helps. Give it time, and you may collect a few reg sets yourself.

Your post makes me feel like I just woke up in the middle of a calculous class... After the third read, I finally understood it. So what I think you are saying is that in the end there are a thousand choices and each can be paired and tweaked until they end up in one very specific set. Many pros and cons that are learned over time and personal preference. In other words welcome to the world of scuba gear that is almost as complicated as the ocean it will be used in

[BillZ]

The only slight negative I've seen with the Hog is that the first stage is really heavy.

I have not weighed mine. But I have noticed amongst my friends and aquaintences who have HOGs that they don't fail slowly with creep. They are working fine then bang, massive HP seat failure. Sample size is small and probably biased anyway. Still interesting compared to say my MK20/S600 which always develops a small leak around the spring opening when it needs service.

I just heard last night about this same scenario happening to a Hog reg last week, but didn't get many details other than it was on a deco bottle and blew out the top of the first stage and SPG. Same thing - small sample size and sketchy details.

[CaptnJack]

I just heard last night about this same scenario happening to a Hog reg last week, but didn't get many details other than it was on a deco bottle and blew out the top of the first stage and SPG. Same thing - small sample size and sketchy details.

It was Lundy IIRC. Also happened to one of mine, although not underwater.

Personally I find "sealed" and "cold water kits" extraneous for our local diving. Our waters do not qualify as cold from an icing perspective (Alaska and ID yes though). I've had an unsealed dive rite diaphram reg for over a decade and nary any icing issues.

My favorite regs are actually the scubapro MK20/25s and the old G250 2nds. I like the 1st stage swivels, the bottom port, the way the 1st stages fail gradually when they need service, the metal inlet tubes in the 2nds, and the overall durability of the plastics used in the 2nds.

[GearHead]

Your post makes me feel like I just woke up in the middle of a calculus class... After the third read, I finally understood it. So what I think you are saying is that in the end there are a thousand choices and each can be paired and tweaked until they end up in one very specific set. Many pros and cons that are learned over time and personal preference. In other words welcome to the world of scuba gear that is almost as complicated as the ocean it will be used in

Precisely. And I didn't even get into hose lengths.

I'll add that half of my collection was bought second hand, closeout or on some other sale. Even when you buy new, I recommend having the rig checked by a good technician to make sure it's set up properly.

[cofford]

I've got a few sets each of Atomics and Hog piston regs. I'm hard on gear. My doubles regs never get removed. My deco bottles sit in my car for weeks at a time. I rinse my stuff by occasionally diving in a freshwater lake.

I've had zero issues with my Hogs (after I swapped them to the soft faceplate). The piston design is simple and easy to service. I have BP1 first stages and I hear the BP2 has some better features. The second stages look like an Apeks on the inside. They do require servicing every year or so to maintain performance, but I haven't had any IP creep. I swapped a first stage underwater once and it didn't miss a beat.

That said, the Atomics are bulletproof. IP is rock solid. First stages are sealed with Christolube. No issues with sand in second stages. No freeflows. None have required service at all. I've got M1s and Z2s, and though I like some of the features of the M1, the Z2 is just as good quality and performance-wise. They just feel super-solid to breathe. I'm always on the lookout for more Atomics.

[CaptnJack]

They just feel super-solid to breathe. I'm always on the lookout for more Atomics.

My wife have a non-swivel atomic 1st (I don't know all the models) + second. 8 years old, never needed service, solid as a rock. I'm the same way with scubapro mk15s/20s with old style G250s - if the price is right.

[winte.r]

I'm too new for my opinion to matter, but I recently spent $140 servicing a mk16 and R380 and also bought a HOG D1 w/coldwater kit , D1 second and a milflex hose for $165 (on sale obviously) -- I don't care if HOG parts are available in 5 years because I won't feel like I didn't get my money's worth. The D1 breathes better than the 380 and as good as an MR12 I've got and it's cheap enough to be disposable.